Isle of Man tourism minister responds to TT deaths

What brought this on???

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 22:09

TT deaths - damning verdictBy Roger Willis'There have been considerable and wholesale failings in the system designed to ensure the safety of spectators was paramount' says Coroner
ISLE OF Man coroner Michael Moyle has savaged the TT race organisation from top to bottom in his verdicts on the deaths of three people - rider Marc Ramsbotham and specators Dean Jacob and Gregory Kenzig - at the 26th Milestone during last year's Senior TT.

Moyle's attack targeted leading race officials, marshals and the Isle of Man government's Department of Transport. 'Members of the public may be astonished not only at the number of failings but the gravity of them,' he said. 'There have been considerable and wholesale failings in the system designed to ensure the safety of spectators was paramount.'

He accused many of the witnesses at the inquest of being defensive and failing to accept facts that were 'blindingly obvious'.

The coroner said he hoped they would play no significant role in the future of racing on the Island and read out a list of the people he was referring to. Chief marshal Roger Hurst and former clerk of the course Neil Hanson - a colleague of Moyle's in the Manx legal profession - were included on it.

Recording verdicts of death by misadventure, Moyle concluded by saying that if the prohibited area at the 26th Milestone had been properly marshalled and properly closed off, spectators would not have been there and their lives would have been spared.

TT organiser ACU Events Ltd and the TT Marshals Association have yet to react to Moyle's pointed remarks but insiders believe draconian restrictions on spectator access to many areas around the Mountain Course is now top of the agenda for this year's event.

Does this help?

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 22:29

I'm sure we all know that nobody rides or watches the TT without knowing the risks. One of my first encouters with death was at the TT at about 10 years old. There seems to be a trend nowadays for our elected few to want to protect us beyond any rational need.
Where would any of us be without our heros?
I grew up with that knoledge that someone, somewhere was daring do the things that I never would. Evel Kenevel and Mike Hailwood did (for me in my youth) the stuff that nobody else would ever do. I loved Barry Sheene but even he would never dare ride the TT. If it is taken away we will be left with no heros to aspire to, nobody to do something so daft that it would make us think twice about doing it ourselvs and then what are we left with? Hmmm...? Well it's left to us and we are no way near responsible enough to look after ourselves. In conclousion, nobody should come between a man and his aspirations! How dare they!

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 22:38

The reality is that you will only ever minimise risk - you'll never eliminate it. So what's his problem?

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 22:38

TT inquest: scene of tragedy described

<img title="Marc Ramsbotham, who died in the accident" src="http://editorial.jpress.co.uk/web/Upload/IOM//TH1_143200819Ramsbotham,%20Marc%20action%20sq%20(died%20Senior%20TT%2007).jpg" id="MainImage" />Marc Ramsbotham, who died in the accident<a href="javascript: ShowThumb(0);"><img title="Marc Ramsbotham, who died in the accident" src="http://editorial.jpress.co.uk/web/Upload/IOM/TH3_143200819Ramsbotham,%20Marc%20action%20sq%20(died%20Senior%20TT%2007).jpg" id="ImageThumb0" /></a><a href="javascript: ShowThumb(1);"><img src="http://www.visordown.com/forum/" id="ImageThumb1" /></a><a href="javascript: ShowThumb(2);"><img src="http://www.visordown.com/forum/" id="ImageThumb2" /></a><a href="javascript: ShowThumb(3);"><img src="http://www.visordown.com/forum/" id="ImageThumb3" /></a>
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View Gallery<!-- google_ad_section_start --><!-- Article Start -->EYEWITNESSES described a scene of tragedy on the second day of the inquest into the deaths of a rider and two spectators at last year's TT races.An inquiry opened this week into the deaths of competitor Marc Ramsbotham, 34, from Norfolk, and spectators Dean Adrian Jacob, 33, from Kidderminster and Gregory John Kenzig, 52, from Australia.

The first day of proceedings opened with video footage of the accident, and the inquiry heard that warning signs prohibiting spectators may have been removed from the area of the accident.

On day two, the inquest heard claims that a risk assessment document dating back to 2004 had disappeared.

TT marshal Keith McKay, of Ramsey, told the hearing he had been marshalling at the 26th milestone, known as Joey's, with six others when the accident happened near the end of Friday's senior race.

Mr McKay said he was standing in the layby when he saw Mr Ramsbotham approach, apparently on the correct racing line, close to the fence posts on the right hand side of the road.

'He cut just a little too close and I saw his head strike the post,' said Mr McKay. 'He crossed the road out of control and I lost sight of him behind the banking.

'Then it all happened in a few seconds. The next I saw of the bike it was about 12 feet in the air. Some of the pieces cartwheeling hit the roof of a car and a motorcycle in the layby.

'I believe the bike had broken up into two pieces from behind the steering head.'

He told the hearing he thought one of the pieces had hit Hilary Musson and another his partner Janice Phillips, both fellow marshals, standing nearby.

Mrs Musson, who had severe injuries, and Ms Phillips, who had a broken arm and other injuries, were both taken by air ambulance to hospital, he said.

Mr McKay told the hearing he had never seen any prohibited area signs to restrict spectating on top of the bank at Joey's during the five years he had marshalled there.

Philip Crowe, who with his brother Robert was deputy sector marshal at Joey's, said there had been no signs at Joey's to show a prohibited area on the top of the bank.

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 22:40

I love the TT!!

Always have since I was taken to morning practice wath my da from the age of 4!

I now plan to marshall.

I was merely pointing out what the 'fuss' is about!

I think it is because thrre eople lost their lives and a marshall lost her leg!

We all know(or some do) the risks of road racing especially the TT and we admire the men and women brave enough to take the challenge of the Course.

However,that isn't the question that was being poised on the thread originally.

I was attempting to enlighten the poster what the FUSS was about!

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 22:46

manxgirl wrote (see)

I love the TT!!

Always have since I was taken to morning practice wath my da from the age of 4!

I now plan to marshall.

I was merely pointing out what the 'fuss' is about!

I think it is because thrre eople lost their lives and a marshall lost her leg!

We all know(or some do) the risks of road racing especially the TT and we admire the men and women brave enough to take the challenge of the Course.

However,that isn't the question that was being poised on the thread originally.

I was attempting to enlighten the poster what the FUSS was about!

We know and we're all with you on this, or at least I am 

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 22:52

R1 loon wrote (see)

manxgirl wrote (see)

I love the TT!!

Always have since I was taken to morning practice wath my da from the age of 4!

I now plan to marshall.

I was merely pointing out what the 'fuss' is about!

I think it is because thrre eople lost their lives and a marshall lost her leg!

We all know(or some do) the risks of road racing especially the TT and we admire the men and women brave enough to take the challenge of the Course.

However,that isn't the question that was being poised on the thread originally.

I was attempting to enlighten the poster what the FUSS was about!

We know and we're all with you on this, or at least I am 

Thanks Hun

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 22:54

Well the TT and it's authorities have just had a good shoeing on the BBC North West news.

Coroner made the point, that although the competitors know the risks involved, how long can the Manx authorities stand by and let others put themselves in danger?

 In other words the Manx goverment must step in and stop the event.

Although not a fan of the TT, if the will of the authorities, competitors and spectators will it to continue, then so be it, who are we to question those who wish to compete?

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:03

they will never stop it, there is too much revenue brought onto the Island by the event.

Also because of the nature of the course thay cannot monitor every section, it is up to the spectators common sense to choose a safe area to watch.

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:06

Thing is the Manx govt will do something (they'll have to, even if only for public opinion) if the organisers wont...and that will mean stopping it.

This is basically in the orgs hands to act and be seen to be acting or have it taken away

The safety in some areas of the circuit is truly shocking (even allowing for the fact that some areas are almost impossible to make safe)

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:10

Health & safety bollox the lot of it. North West news is the most sensationalistic shite on TV - everythings blown out of all proportion, cos fcuk all's actually happening up here.

Tonight at 6.30 - LEAF FALLS NEAR CAT - SHOCKED NEIGHBOURS AND PASSERS-BY LINE UP TO GIVE EYE WITNESS ACCOUNTS. BAN AUTUMN AND ANY WINDS ABOVE 10MPH - e-mail us with your views at nwt@bbc.co.uk

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:11

They wont do anything apart from restrict areas that are popular on the course.

We walk for miles across fields for the best vantage points and we know the risks, they cannot monitor the whole course!!

It is up to the spectator to keep themselves(if they choose to)safe.

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:16

manxgirl wrote (see)

They wont do anything apart from restrict areas that are popular on the course.

We walk for miles across fields for the best vantage points and we know the risks, they cannot monitor the whole course!!

It is up to the spectator to keep themselves(if they choose to)safe.

You & I both know that's a little naive and not how these things work.

If a senior coroner lambasts the TT like this then authorities have to listen and act if necessary - they can't not.

What'll happen is this:-

This year they get a chance to make things better. It'll be a bit better but not right.
So next year they'll do a bit better again but still too many people will die.

The year after (2010) it'll be cancelled for the year while the Tynwald take stock and consult with everyone and their Uncles.

It'll be back in 2011 and 2012 whereupon if it then still fails to come up to scratch it'll be elbowed for good from 2013 onwards (after the Olympics)

Mark my words.

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:25

people race, people watch, people might get injured whilst watching, people might even get killed doing the same thing. it's the luck of the draw. the bike may hit you it might not. what the f*ck are we to do? stay at home and never take any risks? racers never race? it does my head in. life is a risk, and try as they might no one will ever stop accidents happening. if they do, not everyone will want to live in that world. roll on the TT.

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:29

aviator chap wrote (see)

people race, people watch, people might get injured whilst watching, people might even get killed doing the same thing. it's the luck of the draw. the bike may hit you it might not. what the f**ck are we to do? stay at home and never take any risks? racers never race? it does my head in. life is a risk and try as they might no one will ever stop accidents happening and if they do not everyone will want to live in that world. roll on the TT.

well said mate.

and if you are local to the i.o.m you will know what a tosser said coroner is too!!

Makes prince phillip look lucid FFS

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:32

After reading this thread i just put on the dvd of last years event!!!!

On board camera shots are very revealing, almost all of teh way round the course spectators are hanging out of hedges, driveways trees etc. I dont think that there is any way they can make it absolutely safe for spectators, but i guarantee you that if asked the majority of people who make the trip every year will tell you that they know the risks and accept that risk.

I have been, and witnessed what i believe is the most exciting sporting event on the planet, long may the TT continue. I will be there again this year only 71 days to go!!

I wish the families of the deceased all the best, and the brave racers and visitors to the magnificent Isle of Man TT event this year an enjoyable and safe journey.

It will be great to hear VisorDown members stories post TT

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:33

FatBoyTim wrote (see)

After reading this thread i just put on the dvd of last years event!!!!

On board camera shots are very revealing, almost all of teh way round the course spectators are hanging out of hedges, driveways trees etc. I dont think that there is any way they can make it absolutely safe for spectators, but i guarantee you that if asked the majority of people who make the trip every year will tell you that they know the risks and accept that risk.

I have been, and witnessed what i believe is the most exciting sporting event on the planet, long may the TT continue. I will be there again this year only 71 days to go!!

I wish the families of the deceased all the best, and the brave racers and visitors to the magnificent Isle of Man TT event this year an enjoyable and safe journey.

It will be great to hear VisorDown members stories post TT

From what I can work out hardly any of them have been!

See you there in June mate

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:34

Staying at quarterbridge 4 of us going, honestly cant wait. I am 32 but feel like a 6 year old on teh run up to christmas

gettin there on 29th, will have booked for 2009 by the 30th

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:44

we get there on the 29th too.

we are staying in douglas.

Are you at the campsite?

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:49

reply i am on the 12.00 ferry from liverpool to douglas

Staying at the camp site along side the course just after quarterbirge pub and before braddan bridge. We are using iomtents.com for tent hire etc, could not reccomend them enough so far!!!

2 of us with bikes 2 on foot!!!!

where you staying?

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:54

I witnessed the interview on NW tonight with Steve Berry and Gordon was giving him a right hard time. I take the point about the riders and more importantly the spectators knowing the risks, and yes they do, but remember this..... until seat belts were made mandatory the drivers and passengers also knew the risks Made no bloody difference, the ''govt'' still made us all wear the things, and i suspect that more H & S will be imposed on the TT like it or not.

 I have never been to the TT but looking at it on the tv and of course the bike cam's i do think a little more could be done regarding where the public are allowed and what hedge, lampost etc they are allowed to hang from, i think a little bit of give and take is needed if this is not to end in the authorities being made to take drastic action that will do the whole race no good at all.

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:54

FatBoyTim wrote (see)

reply i am on the 12.00 ferry from liverpool to douglas

Staying at the camp site along side the course just after quarterbirge pub and before braddan bridge. We are using iomtents.com for tent hire etc, could not reccomend them enough so far!!!

2 of us with bikes 2 on foot!!!!

where you staying?

staying at my brothers house in douglas. about 2min ride from the Grandstand

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:58

Will start a thread just before TT for a meet over there

Posted: 20/03/2008 at 23:59

manxgirl wrote (see)

FatBoyTim wrote (see)

reply i am on the 12.00 ferry from liverpool to douglas

Staying at the camp site along side the course just after quarterbirge pub and before braddan bridge. We are using iomtents.com for tent hire etc, could not reccomend them enough so far!!!

2 of us with bikes 2 on foot!!!!

where you staying?

staying at my brothers house in douglas. about 2min ride from the Grandstand

Met a great ex manxie last year at the TT, we took a plane there and they made the event for us. We went for many beers and they took us round in the car to see the parts w could not get to by public transport.

and in response to Hudson above try and make the trip even if as a foot passenger for 2 days, i would be interested to see if you still had the same opinion about making it safer for two reasons.

1. take in the evnt and the sprit of the place, the people both residents and vistors
2. Check out the course itself and tell me how you would change what is allready a remarkably safe event for spectators, even though it would appear unsafe.

A recent thread on iomtt.com listed deaths at the TT, every racer, marshall and spectator, and if my memory serves me correctly last years tragic events were the first spectator deaths in teh events history, this does not make it right but remarkable all the same and to put a perspective on it for you.

Hope i have not offended any body with this post but forums tend to make things appear worse than they actually are sometimes

Posted: 21/03/2008 at 00:10

manxgirl wrote (see)

Will start a thread just before TT for a meet over there

nice one would be good to have a visordown overseas meet with the folks off here, no doubt you could suggest a suitable location

Posted: 21/03/2008 at 00:11

I can't see how you're offending anyone. Keep posting, that's the point of the forum, all opinions welcome (as long as they match mine)

Posted: 21/03/2008 at 00:12

Last year I watched one race in an area which was peppered with "no spectating here" signs. The marshalls did nothing to enforce this. It was on the outside of a bend where a bike was going to launch itself if the rider got it wrong. This, IMO, was what caused the spectator deaths when Rammy crashed.

I'm a big boy and made the conscious decision to sit there. And so did many others.

However the IOM authorities cannot be seen to be condoning this in this litigiuous age (look it up, you illiterate fuckers) and this is why the arguments are going on.

Make things too restrictive, damage the island's income. Allow the visitors to do what they want, people die who shouldn't have done.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Posted: 21/03/2008 at 00:46

Mikey wrote (see)

Last year I watched one race in an area which was peppered with "no spectating here" signs. The marshalls did nothing to enforce this. It was on the outside of a bend where a bike was going to launch itself if the rider got it wrong. This, IMO, was what caused the spectator deaths when Rammy crashed.

I'm a big boy and made the conscious decision to sit there. And so did many others.

However the IOM authorities cannot be seen to be condoning this in this litigiuous age (look it up, you illiterate fuckers) and this is why the arguments are going on.

Make things too restrictive, damage the island's income. Allow the visitors to do what they want, people die who shouldn't have done.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

On the litigious point - remember the Isle Of Man is self-governing and not controlled by our Nanny State. It may therefore have a differing legislative approach on the aspect of applying common sense.

Posted: 21/03/2008 at 00:52

R1 loon wrote (see)

On the litigious point - remember the Isle Of Man is self-governing and not controlled by our Nanny State. It may therefore have a differing legislative approach on the aspect of applying common sense.

And all credit to the IOM for letting the event live for as long as it has. I have ties with the IOM and enjoy the attitude "we're part of the UK when it suits us but distance ourselves when it doesn't".

But if the IOM doesn't want to be a 3rd world nation they have a duty of care to everyone who visits the island. Ignoring the "common sense" you espouse is neglectful. This story is about learning from past mistakes to make sure it doesn't happen again.

The hard part is doing that without putting off the people that make it worthwhile doing it in the first place.

Posted: 21/03/2008 at 01:11

Too late to get into this, but.... the common sense aspect was around the apparent lack of it that people have nowadays. They put themselves into precarious positions, that any halfwit would know is not advisable. Subsequently complaining if it goes wrong, as "there was nothing to tell me I couldn't do it" - what next signs on all vehicles saying, please do not step in front of when moving.

Posted: 21/03/2008 at 01:18

Thank you very much indeed.....

David Gilmore

Posted: 21/03/2008 at 01:22

R1 loon wrote (see)

I can't see how you're offending anyone. Keep posting, that's the point of the forum, all opinions welcome (as long as they match mine)

Posted: 21/03/2008 at 07:15

lets be honest..no motorsport can ever be 100% safe. It's partly about the risks why people compete and to a lesser extent spectate. The TT association, government and police can only do so much to protect riders and spectators, but common sense should tell you where is safe to spectate and not. For me I tend to keep away from the outside of bends. I think the accident/fatality rate is incredibly low considering the type of course and the amount of visitors and bikes there are tearing round the island. The big problem is the sensationalism of any accident by the press...and its always the same message.."ban the killer TT"..I think the press in this country are totally disgusting these days, you cant trust a word they print in my opinion, even if it's half true its blown out of all proportion to try and increase sales.

On similar lines look at the way the Express treated the McCanns...disgraceful. They should have been fined fifty million never mind five hundred thousand. Maybe the press would get the message then that they cant print anything other than the facts.

Posted: 21/03/2008 at 08:19

mentioned a thread on the official TT website regarding deaths at the TT:

http://www.iomtt.com/Home/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=98933

Posted: 21/03/2008 at 08:52

FatBoyTim wrote (see)

mentioned a thread on the official TT website regarding deaths at the TT:

http://www.iomtt.com/Home/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=98933

I'm not even going to look at that

Posted: 21/03/2008 at 21:04

A risk assesment was done about 4 years ago of the course,this involved two people walking the entire length of the course.This doccument has gone missing!From personal experience i can tell you that many people were very unhappy at being told they could no longer watch the racing from the spot they have used for the last 20 years+.spectator injury is rare all the same.

Also from experience i can tell you that when a bike hits a solid object at race speed it is impossible to predict where everything and everyone is going to land.Sods law is very clear on this,if there was just one person watching the tt and a bike crashed at any point of the course it will without a shadow of a doubt hit that one poor soul wherever he is stood on the 37.7 mile of track.

As a final comment i can say that anyone riding the islands roads racing or just having fun except the risks involved,until about a nano second before the shit hits the fan,and then you take it all back and suddenly find religion.

Posted: 21/03/2008 at 22:55

manxgirl wrote (see)

FatBoyTim wrote (see)

mentioned a thread on the official TT website regarding deaths at the TT:

http://www.iomtt.com/Home/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=98933

I'm not even going to look at that

it was written amongst other things i believe as part of a book that a guy was trying to get published, the proceeds would have gone to riders charities on the isle of man!!!!

Posted: 23/03/2008 at 10:38