Grieving parents call for tougher testing

"he suffered fatal injuries in an accident while out riding his new bike with his friends"

Without wishing to cast aspersions, I hope that none of his friends were pushing this new rider too hard.

Posted: 01/05/2009 at 16:04

Good point that,peer pressure is a strong thing.None of this is mentioned in training.I think at that age they think they are invincible and get carried away on an adrenalein rush.Too young to be riding a motorbike,insurance companies should price them off the road for their own good-and their parents.

Posted: 01/05/2009 at 22:18

Firstly, my condolences to the family of this lad.

However I don't agree that learners should have to do more training before they are allowed on the roads. It is called compulsory Basic training afterall. If you pass that standard then you are able to demonstrate basic machine skills which are enough to allow you out to gain experience on the roads. Unfortunately I would guess that the lads mates were just a little more competant than him and he tried to keep up. It is a tragedy for sure but any novice of any age will be vulnerable until they gain some on road experience.

I am shocked that you have that opinion dwarf, kids on the continent are actively encouraged to ride mopeds from the age of 14 yet no one there appears to want them priced off the road.

The fact is that this lad could just as easily had an accident on his pushbike had he not been on a motorbike.

Posted: 01/05/2009 at 22:43

Posted: 01/05/2009 at 23:01

Very sad news, condolences to the family.

 Having said that, I don't think there is any need for tougher testing, like the pushbike thing, the guy could have just as easily have been in a car with his mates having just passed his test, this is probably the worst case of having an accident soon after a CBT? thousands complete the CBT and are fortunate enough to go on without any problems?

It is sad news of course, I just don't see that blaming the lack of training is the way to go here...

Posted: 02/05/2009 at 03:44

As has been said: Sad news.

I done my Cbt 19 years ago on a 3 day intensive course. I passed 1st time at the age of 24 & I only took that because my license was about to run out. Does anyone else know anything else about this incident?. As it's a bit thin on details. If they are going to bring in legislation for young bikers, are they going to do the same for young car drivers?. I can see nothing in that news item that says it's down to peer pressure?.

Just my tuppence worth.

Posted: 02/05/2009 at 06:16

Again, condolences to the family.

However, willful ignorance, even in grief, is a disservice to the lads memory and may obscure any lessons that could be learned from this tragedy. What exactly happened, were there any other vehicles involved? We've all been pressurised by other road users before, was that a factor? What condition were the roads in? Was his bike a 125, able to keep up with the flow of traffic, or was it restricted, making other traffic marginalise and intimidate him? Were his friends putting pressure on him, was he showing off? I doubt very much that extra training would have helped avert most of the above... 

Posted: 02/05/2009 at 16:49

It's tragedy to hear about this - my condolences to David's family and friends.

I agree that CBT is a short course but for the majority it is sufficient - maybe because most have some road experience already. I think the government should be thinking about using mileage as the measure of experience rather than time. At the moment you can pass the CBT, wait two years (without riding at all) and jump straight onto a GSXR. I know that the temptation to ride a big cool bike is huge when you are young, so I think mileage is key. Also Bikesafe courses around the country is a great concept. All in all I think these things should be promoted but not forced - we are too much of a nanny state already. 

Posted: 02/05/2009 at 21:22

kaizenkowboy wrote (see)

It's tragedy to hear about this - my condolences to David's family and friends.

I agree that CBT is a short course but for the majority it is sufficient - maybe because most have some road experience already. I think the government should be thinking about using mileage as the measure of experience rather than time. At the moment you can pass the CBT, wait two years (without riding at all) and jump straight onto a GSXR. I know that the temptation to ride a big cool bike is huge when you are young, so I think mileage is key. Also Bikesafe courses around the country is a great concept. All in all I think these things should be promoted but not forced - we are too much of a nanny state already. 

No you can't.  The biggest bike you can ride having only taken a CBT, is a 125cc not exceeding 11kW.  No matter how long ago you did the CBT.  To ride anything bigger you must take the full Motorcycle test.

Condolences to the guy in the story BTW.

Posted: 02/05/2009 at 21:34

Posted: 02/05/2009 at 21:51

My condolences to the unfortunate bikers family and friends.

Having taken my CBT over two days last year, being a total beginner to biking (but with 28 years driving experience), I can understand why it would appear that a CBT seems too short a period of time to train a beginner biker. However, a CBT is nothing more than Compulsory Basic Training, as properly explained in an earlier post.

Personal responsibility is something that is also taught (explained?) during the CBT session. In this case, sadly, personal responsibility would have extended to the new holder of a CBT certificate recognising the fact that a period of further learning was very important - in order to gain some level of competence and experience in the real world.

Let me explain by example. Having passed my CBT and subsequently purchased a brand new YZF-R125, a bike I had NO previous experience of, I initially spent weeks riding around the quiet mostly empty residential roads where I live. During that time, I paced myself, slowly getting to grips with my new bike, learning how to handle it - and how it handled. I literally started off, going round and round the block, till I had enough experience to ride further and further away from home in a more competent manner at slightly higher speeds (well within the speed limit of course). I decided for safety's sake - MY safety - it was paramount that I became one with my bike at my own careful pace. My primary directives to myself were simple - do not come to harm, do not harm anyone else through sheer incompetence or ignorance of biking while riding, and please, please, not to drop my spanking brand new R125.

I WILL definitely be doing a Bikesafe Course before I begin regular commuting - all in an attempt to be a safe rider, and reduce my chances of becoming another fatal statistic.

At this stage, peer pressure should not come into it. Mates eager to show off to, or egg on a new biker with barely 6 hours of riding skill (straight from a CBT) should be avoided. Any initial ride outs should be with understanding more experienced bikers who can identify with (and remember) what it is like to be brand new to biking, and can adjust their actions to accommodate the new riders non existent capabilities.

Patience is a virtue. Unfortunately, with all due respect, most teenagers, whether new bikers or drivers, often do not have the aforementioned mindset - and the results can sometimes be fatal.

Posted: 02/05/2009 at 23:06

When I did my CBT I did so with 20 years of driving experience behind me. This has made me think about what you get taught. For me it was a good day but I can imagine that for someone who'snot only learning to ride a bike but also learning the rules of the road it can be very challenging.

 In fact even my DAS was all about riding and positioning. There was no coverage of the basics although of course this was probably down to them knowing my background.

 Perhaps there should be a different route in for those with existing licences and those who are total newbies to the roads.

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 09:17

While Mr and Mrs Sanderson are obviously grieving they are not really the right people to be listening to about bike training are they?  What about the tens of thousands of new riders who do not have any accidents after the CBT, let alone fatal ones?

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 09:59

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 10:25

ScottyUK wrote (see)

What about them?

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 10:31

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 19:20

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 19:34

A-I-S wrote (see)

you really are unpleasent FJS , does it matter how many are killed , before they change the direction and quality of the CBT( which I think Is piss poor), they have lost thier 17 year old son, I would love to see you make that comment to the lads (RIP) father.

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence, so obviously not you, would understand that the parents of a person who has just died in a bike incident so soon after taking a CBT will have a vastly different opinion of what is appropriate basic training over those that have not. 

Most people are not killed or seriously injured after taking their CBT - so the 'quality' of training, no matter what you or the grieving parents currently think, is not that bad. 

You are also falling into the trap of presuming that somehow more training would be of benefit - do you know which group have the most KSI's?  'L' riders, recent DAS passers or experienced riders?

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 19:35

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 19:45

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

A-I-S wrote (see)

you really are unpleasent FJS , does it matter how many are killed , before they change the direction and quality of the CBT( which I think Is piss poor), they have lost thier 17 year old son, I would love to see you make that comment to the lads (RIP) father.

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence, so obviously not you, would understand that the parents of a person who has just died in a bike incident so soon after taking a CBT will have a vastly different opinion of what is appropriate basic training over those that have not. 

Most people are not killed or seriously injured after taking their CBT - so the 'quality' of training, no matter what you or the grieving parents currently think, is not that bad. 

You are also falling into the trap of presuming that somehow more training would be of benefit - do you know which group have the most KSI's?  'L' riders, recent DAS passers or experienced riders?

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 19:52

Private_sam wrote (see)

I wish you had died.

You really shouldn't wish that on anyone, you pathetic little loser.

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 19:55

Insensitive, yes, but also correct. Like I said earlier, I feel for the parents, I lost my brother at a similar age and the pain still hasn't gone, even twenty years later, Gods can't know what they're going through right now. But would extra training have helped? If it could, then of course we should all stand behind demands for improved standards. But I suspect, as I'm sure FJS does, that it probably wouldn't. My opinion is that bikers already go through more training than any other new road user, without reducing our vulnerability significantly. The only serious reduction in accident statistics in the last ten years that I'm aware of occurred in London when congestion charging changed the ratio of PTWs to cars. More bikes and scooters with fewer cars made the road environment safer for both users. There comes a point where ever more training yields lower results. I believe we've met that point. Discouraging new riders through increased cost and beurocracy, the deliberate policy of successive governments since I started riding, is actually making the roads more dangerous. In my opinion, of course. 

Which isn't an argument I'd consider putting to the boys parents any time soon. Instead we should try to learn any lessons we can while respecting their grief and offering our heartfelt condolencies. 

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 19:58

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

Private_sam wrote (see)

I wish you had died.

You really shouldn't wish that on anyone, you pathetic little loser.

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 20:03

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

Private_sam wrote (see)

I wish you had died.

You really shouldn't wish that on anyone, you pathetic little loser.

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 20:03

A-I-S wrote (see)

 you have a twisted bead on life, and only one opinion, that cant be swayed, who gets killed the most does'nt interst me,your comment was out of place, attacking me, does'nt change the fact your comment was totally crass

I fail to see how suggesting that the parents of the rider who died might not have the best opinion of what training was appropriate is a 'twisted bead on life' (whatever that is)

Why not explain exactly why you think my comment was 'out of place' without resorting to more of your first crass outbursts such as 'you really are unpleasant'.  (As you are slightly brighter than some of those other idiots and you should be able to see that I don't have a go at anyone on a thread until they have had a pot shot at me.)

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 20:07

Flo wrote (see)

Insensitive, yes, but also correct. Like I said earlier, I feel for the parents, I lost my brother at a similar age and the pain still hasn't gone, even twenty years later, Gods can't know what they're going through right now. But would extra training have helped? If it could, then of course we should all stand behind demands for improved standards. But I suspect, as I'm sure FJS does, that it probably wouldn't. My opinion is that bikers already go through more training than any other new road user, without reducing our vulnerability significantly. The only serious reduction in accident statistics in the last ten years that I'm aware of occurred in London when congestion charging changed the ratio of PTWs to cars. More bikes and scooters with fewer cars made the road environment safer for both users. There comes a point where ever more training yields lower results. I believe we've met that point. Discouraging new riders through increased cost and beurocracy, the deliberate policy of successive governments since I started riding, is actually making the roads more dangerous. In my opinion, of course. 

Which isn't an argument I'd consider putting to the boys parents any time soon. Instead we should try to learn any lessons we can while respecting their grief and offering our heartfelt condolencies. 

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 20:07

wavydave13 wrote (see)

ffs ian you said as much in a thread about lunatic riders on sportsbikes.you said you couldn't be bothered if they killed themselves.

I don't think I said that at all.  Got a link? 

But it is fair to say I don't care if any people choose to behave in a way that causes them to end up killing themselves. It is not my place to stop them is it?

But that is rather different to wishing that any individual had died, as that shit-for-brains Private_sam has come out with.

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 20:12

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

I don't have a go at anyone on a thread until they have had a pot shot at me.

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 20:15

secret squirrel wrote (see)

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

I don't have a go at anyone on a thread until they have had a pot shot at me.

Sadly that isn't true.

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 20:17

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

wavydave13 wrote (see)

ffs ian you said as much in a thread about lunatic riders on sportsbikes.you said you couldn't be bothered if they killed themselves.

I don't think I said that at all.  Got a link? 

But it is fair to say I don't care if any people choose to behave in a way that causes them to end up killing themselves. It is not my place to stop them is it?

But that is rather different to wishing that any individual had died, as that shit-for-brains Private_sam has come out with.

You have used this insult yourself. Why is it so hard for you to be recieving the same.

You get what you give.

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 20:25

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

secret squirrel wrote (see)

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

I don't have a go at anyone on a thread until they have had a pot shot at me.

Sadly that isn't true.

Link?

You must have a terrible memory if you need people to provide links all the time.

You are always slating other people and then demanding proof to wriggle your way out of it. All you have to do is a search on yourself and read all the unpleasant comments you have made to other members just because they didn't agree with you but if you want some

read your own thread

this is also where you said you wished they would all die.

Feel free to admit you were wrong at any time

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 20:26

This is for FJS. I had the misfortune to deal with someone from the SW in my Carole Nash days; a right little know-it-all he was too.

It was great listening to his calls and whingeing and "I'm right and the rest of the world is wrong" attitude.

Everyone he came into contact couldn't stand him, from the dealer he bought his bike from, through to people he came into contact with on the road.

The funniest bit was when his neighbour had enough of him, smashed his bike up, then filled him in for good measure. I think he suffered from small-man syndrome.

I'm not sure how or for that matter why you get your kicks antagonising everyone, but these things tend to grow to such an extent that events spiral out of control. It can't be nice being the one lying in hospital (or the morgue for that matter) thinking, "I was right", as you're the one that ultimately suffers.

The above is no more than a comment on life and how it tends to get very complicated very quickly.

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 20:32

Flo wrote (see)

But would extra training have helped? If it could, then of course we should all stand behind demands for improved standards. But I suspect, as I'm sure FJS does, that it probably wouldn't. My opinion is that bikers already go through more training than any other new road user, without reducing our vulnerability significantly.

I think the introduction of the compulsory CBT in the early '90's was a good thing - I was an instructor on the old RAC/ACU courses in the late '70's/early 80's and went onto be a Star Rider instructor on which included a training element that effectively became the old 'Part 1' test.  But they were voluntary and new riders could still blast about on 'L' plated 250's with no training whatsoever.   I think that, when done well, the CBT is pretty good indeed (there is a concern that some schools can churn out pupils with little actual training) 

The DSA test is not much more than putting into practice what a good CBT teaches.  Most of the training for the test is just that - practice.

I think training above and beyond the CBT/DSA test standard is worthwhile but the rider needs to want to do it for themselves.  Bikesafe is intended as a way of giving those who might  think the IAM is bit dull some experience of what further skills can give - but it is not really 'training'.  It is just a taster. 

Does this 'save lives'?  I really don't know as it is attitude and knowledge that keeps you alive.  Sadly some people are not really able to grasp that at all....

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 20:37

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 21:27

big zook wrote (see)

That`s really an sad  story.But the cbt is exactly that ,BOG basic road training 4 the novice.Thousands of older riders had no basic training and we are still riding around today .The excitement of a new bike and a rideout with his mates,just got the better of him. .

Posted: 03/05/2009 at 22:05

A-I-S wrote (see)

 may his mum and dad come to tems with their loss, and remember he was doing somthing he loved.

Posted: 04/05/2009 at 04:08

Well theres a few things here, aside from the insults that have crept in, losing the thread somewhat.

I would hate to be the parent who has to face this loss, we all will have the worry of our kids being passengers or drivers/riders and the risks involved either from being stupid or inexperienced, or other road users errors.

It is a shame and for sure, I bet we 'all' feel sorry for the Mum and Dad and close family.

For those of you that have been in motorcycle accidents and have either commented or not, imagine for a few moments the feelings of distress and fear the lad may have encountered at the time, I find this may have seemed quite a lonely moment in a short life. We should not forget this.

The CBT seems only really about control of the machine, and really whether a rider is suitable for road riding whilst in control of such a machine.

There could be classroom learning incorporated into the CBT easily, with discussion of likely road experiences and hazards, rider behaviour, confidence changes, risks and responsibility etc. Weather factors also.

You cant arrange driving tuition through a garage can you, so why is it that all rider training is through bike shops? Some questions are bound to be asked around the suitability of training where a vested interest exists in the pupils likelyhood of purchasing a vehicle from said training centre.

I remember the CBT being introduced ages ago, and it took a few days, shortly being reduced to same day training, then 'Guaranteed Passes' being advertised. This still is the norm.

The training should be arranged out of the dealer network completely, that is all that should be changed initially. The certificates would more likely be of a consistent nationwide standard. Remaining fully accessable to all, with no conflict of interests.

The nature in this country of 'blame' seems to be stronger all the time, always elsewhere though.

I do believe responsibility lies in a number of areas, and that is the accompanying riders attitudes to a new riders ability, and friendship meaning responsibility and care really. The excitement of course of having your bike and being able to ride it legally, could be quite a thing to handle responsibly too. I am sorry to say really, that if a decision has been made by the parents to allow a child to ride a motorcycle on the road, then some responsibility must be shared. The degree of training for available and content or suitability must have been assessed by them surely? And if indequate then further training arranged. Easy to say in hindsight maybe, but I am a parent, a rider, and driver, my kids are nearing the ages where these things are now important.

As has been said elsewhere, we know very little of the incident.

Maybe just very unlucky to be the one that 'wasn't seen'.

One thing is for sure, the CBT content isn't to be relied on to guarantee a safe existence on a motorcycle. Just as a cycling profficiency test won't for a pushbike. Or a car test for driving. We can't blame them really because in all cases there are so many factors beyond the learning seat.

Lets hope it never happens again eh.   

Posted: 04/05/2009 at 13:52

CarsOrBikes wrote (see)

There could be classroom learning incorporated into the CBT easily, with discussion of likely road experiences and hazards, rider behaviour, confidence changes, risks and responsibility etc. Weather factors also.

All in there already - Element D 'Practical On-Road Training'

CarsOrBikes wrote (see)

I remember the CBT being introduced ages ago, and it took a few days, shortly being reduced to same day training, then 'Guaranteed Passes' being advertised. This still is the norm.

CarsOrBikes wrote (see)

I am sorry to say really, that if a decision has been made by the parents to allow a child to ride a motorcycle on the road, then some responsibility must be shared. The degree of training for available and content or suitability must have been assessed by them surely?

Posted: 04/05/2009 at 14:10

Sad news about the lad,

 If the powers that be make it a harded test before letting you out on your own on the road, then what are they going to do to stop someone with NO hours/miles on the road from getting behind the wheel of a Scubby with there mates and putting it around a tree.

Is there a CBT for car drivers

(and before any of you say that the person sat at the side fo them has to have passed there test X years ago, try and control a car that is heading for a wall/tree at 60 mph with just the handbrake and 1 hand on the wheel --- if you can then tell us about you plans to make the CBT/bike training harder)

High deaths in cars + airbags = less deaths in cars

Legal minimum for bike = a lid (how many of you go out in shorts/pants, T-shirt and trainers(not me))

Posted: 04/05/2009 at 19:13

Posted: 04/05/2009 at 20:02