Croft trackday accident - Hottrax statement

Statement from the Director of Hottrax trackdays

Posted: 24 July 2007
by Visordown News

Statement from Dave Mabbutt, Director of Hottrax Trackdays - where a rider was recently involved in an accident that has left him in a critical condition in hospital.

Croft - 23rd July 2007

A severe accident occurred in the morning of our track day at Croft on 23rd July 2007. This involved 2 riders colliding on the main straight. One rider was declared fit at the scene and the other was in a critical condition. The police were called and a full investigation was started. The Police closed the circuit indefinitely and no further activity was allowed that day.

You will no doubt be very pleased to hear that the rider is in a stable condition at 10am 24th July 2007.

The medical services and marshalling at the circuit were superb and it is at times like this that we know we are in good hands while riding, my thanks go to everyone involved at Croft and all other circuits in the UK.

While we are sympathetic with our customers in loosing track time our main priority is to attend to stricken riders. The closure was due to circumstances out of Hottrax or Croft Circuit's control.

I will not be asking Croft Circuit for compensation and we are unable to compensate any rider attending this event. We will not be offering discounts, vouchers, refunds or credits towards any future events. These types of incident are very rare and I still believe track days are a safer prospect for riders than riding on the roads.

We have had a number of calls and emails from customers attending this event asking how the rider is and we are very grateful for your concern. Hottrax have never lost a rider at our events in over 6 years of running track days and we are very proud of that in these days of fast, powerful bikes and in some cases, very questionable riding.

However, we have also had calls from customers with no concern for the rider's welfare and only interested in compensation for the loss of track time. Karen and I are quite frankly upset and disappointed by this attitude and any profit from this event will be going to the air ambulance charity.

Regards

Dave Mabbutt

Director

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This thread is for discussion of the article Croft trackday accident - Hottrax statement

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 12:04

I think its easy for those involved in the industry in some way, be it trackdays or racing, to have a much better insight of how things work with regards to balancing this pastime financially. For example all racers will know that they can spend hundreds getting sorted for a weekend, only to have the bike in the back of the van after the first lap. Maybe due to somebody elses fault. However I think its important for those in the industry to see it from the perspective of the casual rider, the one who saves up their hard earned, takes a day off work and scampers across the country for their fix of tracktime. It is understandable that they dont have the same attitude/understanding in this situation and Hottrax should understand that. I think it is great that profits went to the Air Ambulance, but I also feel the statement could have made those who missed out, feel better about it.

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 16:29

That statement from them makes them look like such a fish & chip outfit, and puts me off ever doing a trackday, particularly one with Hottrax. What other business would get away with a statement like that? "We've got your money, haven't supplied you with the services you paid for, and have donated the money to charity so tough cookies". And to then cap it off with a dig at the people who asked for their money back?

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 17:20

aye takes the piss in my eyes, they are not willing to lose their cash (although donating profit to charity is noble) but when folks ring up for a refund they get slated.

seems a little tin-pot to me

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 17:54

My thoughts are with the families of the riders involved and also with Dave and Karen at Hottrax. As far as we know to date the organisers are not ats fault and I have been on many many trackdays in the past. I know from experience that the Hottrax days are perhaps the safest out there. We all know the risks riding our bikes and riding on a closed circit is, in my opinion far safer than riding on the road.
I do not feel that it if appropriate to headline this article with Hottrax in the title as it is of no relevance who was the organiser on the day.
I doubt very much that you would get ''slated'' ringing up for a refund but, quite frankly, you deserve to. Sorry, but thats how I feel. You are the ones looking 'tin pot' for God's sake have some compasion for all those involved.
In the present litigious climate I feel that all trackday organisers are potentially sticking their neck out arranging days for US to enjoy riding our bikes. Granted they make a profit (not much, I know for a fact) but without them having the guts to do this, we would not have the opportunity to enjoy our sport.
This incident is very sad and my thoughts, once again, go to all the families.

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 18:24

they cant be held resposible so there is no risk to them being taken to the cleaner as we all sign a disclaimer before going on a trackday


and yes is it bad business not offering a refund or some other form of incentive as you paid but get jack all ??


croft should refund hotrax and they in turn should refund the trackday stars

i am in business and if i tried this i would lose custom

as for slating those trackday stars for daring to ask for some recompence ? who do hotrax think they are eh cheeky barstewerds


if you paid by credit card use them to make hotrax give you your cash back

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 20:31

I too,sincerlely hope that the riders make a full recovery,its never nice of hearing these things happening.However,i feel Hottrax have a duty to at least organise a trackday for the riders of that day,who save up their hard earned cash to do a full trackday,and they are very expensive.What about Croft circuit bosses,suppose they kept the money.Maybe Hottrax and Croft should get their heads together and organise another day for the paying punters who had unfortnately lost out to these unfortunate circumstances.Without them,the organisers and circuits would eventually cease to be anymore.Maybe they should be a bit more considerate and forgiving.

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 20:41

My condolences to the riders hurt...
I have done many trackdays and some club racing....these thing happen....every time it is very sad ...
I personally would be a little bit offened my the tone of the Hottrax statement...But you have to put yourself in the position of the person who issued it?...I'm sure the last 24hrs have been a little stressfull!.
If the accident had happened before some riders had even had a chance to go on the track...maybe some kind of compensation could have been offered..at the least say A half price trackday...anything would have been better than NO!....
As to signing a disclaimer and Hottrax not being liable ..thats ridiculous....off course they could be liable for all sorts of issue's arising from a death or accident on track or off it!
I'm sure they would have to have insurance for just such a incident.

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 20:59

slogger wrote

croft should refund hotrax and they in turn should refund the trackday stars

So croft should pay all their employees, marshals, medics etc, AND give a refund, for something entirely out of their control?

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 21:02

Abel wrote
So croft should pay all their employees, marshals, medics etc, AND give a refund, for something entirely out of their control?


But should the riders who paid their fee,petrol,getting their expenses etc etc lose their money for something that is out of their control

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 21:34

No but why should all the people who paid lose there money too?

I think at least a discounted day for the guys who lost there day would be in order, Yes the guy hurt himself its the risk we all take when we get on our bikes and ride but he isnt dead.All the sanctimonious shit about being disgusted that people wanted a refund and the should think about the rider is crap

I was just about to book a track day with them but if thats there attitude they wont be getting my custom

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 21:36

You seem to be forgetting that you aren't paying to ride the track, you are paying for the all the organisation, planning, administration and wages that it requires to get you on to the track.
That all costs regardless.
The fact something prevented much track time is neither here nor there.
Why should the organiser brunt those costs?

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 21:44

To that same end tho why should all the punters have to pay? it was hardly there fault either! circuits and TDO make money by running track days they dont do it to get a warm fuzzy feeling inside do they!!!

before trackdays took off circuits were deserted for weeks on end unless they had some race meet or other, so the tracks are making more money now than they ever have i think maybe its time to give something back,if it wasnt for the people spending there hard earned they wouldnt be any trackdays full stop.

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 22:06

Abel wrote
You seem to be forgetting that you aren't paying to ride the track, you are paying for the all the organisation, planning, administration and wages that it requires to get you on to the track.
That all costs regardless.
The fact something prevented much track time is neither here nor there.
Why should the organiser brunt those costs?


Because it is a business! As a business they surely have a responsibility to provide the service to the customers that the customers have paid for. And yes, that does include the track time.

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 22:06

splanger wrote
Because it is a business! As a business they surely have a responsibility to provide the service to the customers that the customers have paid for.

They have.
They have provided all the infrastructure that enables the customer to get on track for the day.
THAT is what you are paying for. NOT track time.
The same as some insurers dont pay out for acts of god, they cant cover the cost of the police not allowing the event to continue. That would mean yet ANOTHER TDO going bust.
Top plan ya got there.

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 22:13

If you paid for a fully inclusive holiday,say in Florida and a Tornado wiped out the complex,would you expect your money back or think oh well,its not the fault of the travel agency,so they might as well keep my money as the Airline and the complex staff still need paying.I wouldn't.

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 22:15

jason r wrote
If you paid for a fully inclusive holiday,say in Florida and a Tornado wiped out the complex,would you expect your money back or think oh well,its not the fault of the travel agency,so they might as well keep my money as the Airline and the complex staff still need paying.I wouldn't.

That would be covered by insurance.
Losing track time while the police investigate a possible death I would hazard a guess isn't.

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 22:16

best way forward would be some like minded bikers setting up a trackday company run purely for fun and minimum profit ie some on here must be retired bikers dont you want that warm fuzzy feeling of making a difference

and you will be putting a finger up at hottrax and the like for daring to snub bikers for wanting what they paid for

accountability is needed here

Posted: 24/07/2007 at 22:54

I am with you all the way on this Abel. As for Size 12's! You remark that my comments about thinking about the injured riders ws sanctimonious crap. Well, you sound like a really compassionate type don't you? Nice bloke. NOT!

Posted: 25/07/2007 at 04:05

Raxner my apoligies my comments were not directed at you or your comments directly, the reason i said it was that it was seeming to be an excuse that "how dare you think about a refund when someone is injured" as we all know the risks.

Im glad the guy appers to be ok and is on the mend ive been in his situation after an off and i feel for him, But the crux of the situation is that people paid for something and they didnt get it. and if that makes me a bad guy then i guess i wont be getting many christmas cards

Posted: 25/07/2007 at 07:05


Hi?
lordy almighty, with such a foolish public statement like that, you can actually hear the liability lawyers sharping their pens from here. Excellent PR move

It may be interesting to remind everyone that in UK law, credit card companies are jointly and severally liable for all payments made by your card. If you had the sense to book a Hottrax trackday at Croft by credit card and you are affected by these events, it may be pertinent to contact your credit card company as soon as possible.

Posted: 25/07/2007 at 08:36

The holiday comment above raises an interesting question I think - is it possible to get insurance to cover events such as this??

The TDO could offer an additional insurance premium that would offer a refund to the customer if the event was cancelled during the day.

Perhaps open to abuse like all insurance, and would put the price of the day up, but worth considering...

Posted: 25/07/2007 at 08:53

sadly not initially being logged on whilst reading this i stumbled across sloggers very intellegent response.

Why dont we all club together and hire a track?. Afterall Brands is only about £17k per day!. Someone could then arrange to put up the fee for the insurance cover which must be for at least 10 million. Maybe slogger can then sort all the admin out..hope he doesnt have a full time job!.


Do you reckon we would break even on this one off "fun" event?.

Who will be in authority and take responsibility for everyone on track?. I am sure looking after 120 riders is a total peice of cake!.

Oh and then slogger you have to be under the police attention should one of your "customers" get seriously hurt..getting investigated for a potential death isnt really that bad.

Oh and then you will have the inconsiderates calling you after asking for a refund..I presume you will also account for this from your own pocket. No big deal really.


I leave that one to you..oh and the invites still open for your business plans for running a bike shop..willing to hear them..via pm obviously as i cant see you when logged on

Posted: 25/07/2007 at 16:32

Eff Bee wrote
sadly not initially being logged on whilst reading this i stumbled across sloggers very intellegent response.

Why dont we all club together and hire a track?. Afterall Brands is only about £17k per day!. Someone could then arrange to put up the fee for the insurance cover which must be for at least 10 million. Maybe slogger can then sort all the admin out..hope he doesnt have a full time job!.


Do you reckon we would break even on this one off "fun" event?.

Who will be in authority and take responsibility for everyone on track?. I am sure looking after 120 riders is a total peice of cake!.

Oh and then slogger you have to be under the police attention should one of your "customers" get seriously hurt..getting investigated for a potential death isnt really that bad.

Oh and then you will have the inconsiderates calling you after asking for a refund..I presume you will also account for this from your own pocket. No big deal really.


I leave that one to you..oh and the invites still open for your business plans for running a bike shop..willing to hear them..via pm obviously as i cant see you when logged on


Nice sarcasm,hope you don't call your customers inconsiderate for expecting a service they have paid for.Don't forget,for a lot of people,paying for a trackday takes up a considerable amount of time for them to save up for.These guys have gone into business to make a considerable profit uot of running trackdays,so at the very least they should provide the end result...Tracktime.I don't pay for what goes on behind the scenes.The owners of the tracks and organisers of the trackdays have a lot to answer to when they are snubbing the riders in this way.

Posted: 25/07/2007 at 17:29

Eff Bee wrote
sadly not initially being logged on whilst reading this i stumbled across sloggers very intellegent response.

Why dont we all club together and hire a track?. Afterall Brands is only about £17k per day!. Someone could then arrange to put up the fee for the insurance cover which must be for at least 10 million. Maybe slogger can then sort all the admin out..hope he doesnt have a full time job!.


Do you reckon we would break even on this one off "fun" event?.

Who will be in authority and take responsibility for everyone on track?. I am sure looking after 120 riders is a total peice of cake!.

Oh and then slogger you have to be under the police attention should one of your "customers" get seriously hurt..getting investigated for a potential death isnt really that bad.

Oh and then you will have the inconsiderates calling you after asking for a refund..I presume you will also account for this from your own pocket. No big deal really.


I leave that one to you..oh and the invites still open for your business plans for running a bike shop..willing to hear them..via pm obviously as i cant see you when logged on


i will let you sort this out for us trackday stars as you seem to have more time than me

viva the bike supermarkets viva viva

Posted: 25/07/2007 at 18:54

Well never done trackday but when they said [PROFIT] would go to air ambulance good course but would the frofits not be better going to the injured rider. Dare said he will need it could be a long time to recovery.
So good luck mate hope your well soon who ever you are and if anyone feels that strong about it then you know what to do boycott comes to mind.

Posted: 25/07/2007 at 19:16

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Posted: 25/07/2007 at 21:07

Raxner wrote
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.


agree with you there Simon.

and as for the considerable profit remark..i am surprised you manage to do a trackday with your head that far up your arris

oh and it wasnt sarcasim..i was being serious...you see i thought id join in talking shit seeing as this place is plenty full of it now.

Posted: 26/07/2007 at 08:04

Eff Bee wrote
agree with you there Simon.

and as for the considerable profit remark..i am surprised you manage to do a trackday with your head that far up your arris

oh and it wasnt sarcasim..i was being serious...you see i thought id join in talking shit seeing as this place is plenty full of it now.


calm down please this is just his way of losing face gracefully

take a large bucket of sand with 2 paracetemol itll all be ok there there there there

viva la supermarkets viva viva :smoke:

Posted: 26/07/2007 at 08:33

we all know the score when we sign up for track days. i cant believe any one trying to get a refund. it wasn't hottrax that closed the circuit it was the police. as for the money going to the air ambulance good on 'em, the service is desperately strapped and they saved the lads life. any of us could need them one day. the hottrax statement could of been a bit less harsh though to do a track day is exspensive job to some of us.

Posted: 26/07/2007 at 09:04

jimmothy37 wrote
we all know the score when we sign up for track days. i cant believe any one trying to get a refund. it wasn't hottrax that closed the circuit it was the police. as for the money going to the air ambulance good on 'em, the service is desperately strapped and they saved the lads life. any of us could need them one day. the hottrax statement could of been a bit less harsh though to do a track day is exspensive job to some of us.


blimey there are still some sensible people on here!

Welcome...!

Posted: 26/07/2007 at 09:14

oh and it wasnt sarcasim..i was being serious...you see i thought id join in talking shit seeing as this place is plenty full of it now.[/QUOTE]


Yeah,seeing as you talk the most shit,you might as well become Managing Director.

Posted: 26/07/2007 at 17:13

jason r wrote
Nice sarcasm,hope you don't call your customers inconsiderate for expecting a service they have paid for.

Ok heres an analogy for ya.
Someone takes an old bike into Steve Jordan MCs with a broken engine to get it fixed.
They take a few hours to drop the engine out of the bike, split the cases and find the fault.
Unfortunately the part required is no longer in production/circulation. A problem totally out of their hands.

Would you expect Sarah to say "never mind, we wont invoice you for the labour" or would you expect her to want paying for the work carried out already?


Quote
I don't pay for what goes on behind the scenes.

You might not THINK you do.
Actually you might not think.

Posted: 26/07/2007 at 17:31

Ok,heres one for you.Owning a shop as they do,they buy £10k worth of Ohlins shocks.Enroute in the lorry,the driver unfortunately has a accident,is taken to hospital and all the shocks are damaged.They phone up for a new consignment or fefund but Ohlins say '....unfortunately that was your stock on the lorry.We won't be able to refund you,however give us another £10k and we will send your out another consignment"

Posted: 26/07/2007 at 17:40

jason r wrote
Ok,heres one for you.Owning a shop as they do,they buy £10k worth of Ohlins shocks.Enroute in the lorry,the driver unfortunately has a accident,is taken to hospital and all the shocks are damaged.They phone up for a new consignment or fefund but Ohlins say '....unfortunately that was your stock on the lorry.We won't be able to refund you,however give us another £10k and we will send your out another consignment"


No the consignment would be insured.

Posted: 26/07/2007 at 17:46

Abel wrote



Actually Jason you might not think.


Correct

Posted: 26/07/2007 at 17:47

jason r wrote
Ok,heres one for you.Owning a shop as they do,they buy £10k worth of Ohlins shocks.Enroute in the lorry,the driver unfortunately has a accident,is taken to hospital and all the shocks are damaged.They phone up for a new consignment or fefund but Ohlins say '....unfortunately that was your stock on the lorry.We won't be able to refund you,however give us another £10k and we will send your out another consignment"


But that wouldn't happen they could insure against it.
They can't insure against parts not being available, or police investigations.

Posted: 26/07/2007 at 17:47

Eff Bee wrote
Correct


Quite.

Posted: 26/07/2007 at 17:48

Why,are you taking the easy option out and mentioning insurance,bit of a kop out.These trackdayers had not had that option.
It would also be interesting to find out when Hottrax mentioned profits,was this after they had paid themselves for that day.Just a thought.

Posted: 26/07/2007 at 17:53

Abel wrote
Ok heres an analogy for ya.
Someone takes an old bike into Steve Jordan MCs with a broken engine to get it fixed.
They take a few hours to drop the engine out of the bike, split the cases and find the fault.
Unfortunately the part required is no longer in production/circulation. A problem totally out of their hands.

Would you expect Sarah to say "never mind, we wont invoice you for the labour" or would you expect her to want paying for the work carried out already?



You might not THINK you do.
Actually you might not think.



Say,they quoted £300 for the job,start to finish,but for the obvious reasons,part not available,do you charge £300 or a lesser sum.

Posted: 26/07/2007 at 17:58

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