Undertaking is illegal on the motorway, isn't it?

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Undertaking is illegal on the motorway, isn't it?

But is it also illegal to hog the middle or outside lane? If so, which is the most illegal

Has anyone ever been prosecuted for either offence?

This thought may have something to do with this morning's ride down the M1 where the outside lane was full for at least 800 yards but the inside and middle lanes were completely empty. Traffic all doing 65mph (except me )

I think under certain circumstances, undertaking isn't illegal. Could be wrong though.

No its not illegal (undertaking that is) Dunno about the other, should be

choc-ice wrote

But is it also illegal to hog the middle or outside lane? If so, which is the most illegal Has anyone ever been prosecuted for either offence?This thought may have something to do with this morning's ride down the M1 where the outside lane was full for at least 800 yards but the inside and middle lanes were completely empty. Traffic all doing 65mph (except me )

i second that amazes me peeps will sit in outside lane in a q while i sail by on the inside sheep mentality i think

I think its because there is a difference between undertaking and progressing in a difference lane basically.

I believe if you are deliberately undertaking to get ahead of traffic then yes it is illegalHowever if you are just holding your lane and speed and are passing traffic on the nearside then no.Think thats how plod would see it but i wait to be corrected

Undertaking is not illegal as long as you haven't changed lanes to do so and you are not exceeding the speed limit.

I'll tell you what annoys me - if I'm in the fast lane and there's cars ahead so I can't go any faster and some twat comes up very close behind me.This happened last week when I was on a borrowed bandit. I pushed the centre stand down onto the road with my heel and covered him with a shower of glowing sparks - he soon backed off.

Storm29 wrote

I believe if you are deliberately undertaking to get ahead of traffic then yes it is illegal

Why else would I do it? You think I want to be in a huge queue of traffic all 20 feet from each others bumpers at 65mph? Or be in a lane to myself at [s]90mph[/s] slightly faster?

Deleted 287 (not verified)

The Slow lane is the new Fast lane, darhling.Least, it is for me

choc-ice wrote

Why else would I do it? You think I want to be in a huge queue of traffic all 20 feet from each others bumpers at 65mph? Or be in a lane to myself at [s]90mph[/s] slightly faster?

you know what i meant?? if you are ducking and diving and lane changing constantly then a copper would probably nick you (bastards) but you can do it subtly (sp?) can't you.......i do it all the time by the way

I do it in the car too.

Winds me up something terrible when you get all the 'tards sitting in the outside lane at 60, when the inside lane is moving freely at 70. I always go on the inside if that's the case, and fuck the lot of 'em. Mind, some of them get really upset and won't let you out when you finally catch whatever it is they're waiting to overtake. I wish people would learn to overtake and then pull back in- rather than stay there for about a mile until they reach the next slow moving vehicle. Then there's always the pillock that sits in the middle lane on a motorway, who gets very indignant about being overtaken on both sides.So far as I know it isn't illegal - I'm going at the speed limit - it's not my fault all the sheep in the outside lane get upset about it - wankers!

what winds me up is..................... that is no fast lane. it's the outside OVERTAKING lane. end of. anyone found there, or the other overtaking lane, with nothing being overtaken should get 3 points for dwdc imho, rather than chasing wvm for having a smoke or barry beemer for 10 over the limit. grrrrrrrrr

Silent Mammary wrote

what winds me up is..................... that is no fast lane. it's the outside OVERTAKING lane. end of. anyone found there, or the other overtaking lane, with nothing being overtaken should get 3 points for dwdc imho, rather than chasing wvm for having a smoke or barry beemer for 10 over the limit. grrrrrrrrr

Here here. The standard of driving in this country is shockingly bad. Drive down the a13 of a weekend and see how many immigrants you spot driving in the outside lane. Its not there fault they dont have motorways in india and they are allowed to drive on our roads without sitting a uk test or have an training, they know no better. Undertaking aggressivly and pulling back out infront of them should be made legal and compulsory.

Passing a vehicle in the inside lane is not specifically illegal, as has been said already. I believe that there is no longer an offence (if there ever was one) of undertaking, or passing on the inside. But a pass could be considered an offence if it was viewed as being carried out in a dangerous manner.I have a view that if people didn't want you to pass on the inside then they wouldn't leave a bloody great space there for you to do it in.In my experience it's more common to piss people off when you do it in the car. On the bike it seems to be generally accepted. But then I don't normally hang about to see a reaction TBH.

JamesZX-6R wrote

Here here. The standard of driving in this country is shockingly bad. Drive down the a13 of a weekend and see how many immigrants you spot driving in the outside lane. Its not there fault they dont have motorways in india and they are allowed to drive on our roads without sitting a uk test or have an training, they know no better. Undertaking aggressivly and pulling back out infront of them should be made legal and compulsory.

have they all got bumper stickers declaring their residency status? Or do you mean all the non-whiteys?

JamesZX-6R wrote

Here here. The standard of driving in this country is shockingly bad. Drive down the a13 of a weekend and see how many immigrants you spot driving in the outside lane. Its not there fault they dont have motorways in india and they are allowed to drive on our roads without sitting a uk test or have an training, they know no better. Undertaking aggressivly and pulling back out infront of them should be made legal and compulsory.

Stinky bait, nobody can be stupid enough to believe this is an immigration issue

Of course it's fucking illegal you idiot. Just think of the mess all the coffins would make never mind the dead bodies and flowers.

Atomic Punk wrote

Undertaking is not illegal as long as you haven't changed lanes to do so and you are not exceeding the speed limit.

With one addition. Your relative speed must not be more than 10 (I think, or maybe 15) mph greater than the vehicle you are passing.This, in itself, is a good thing, because, in car or on a bike, you have to crawl passed them looking in through their passenger window increduously (You have to use your eyes a little more on the bike though, wearing a helmet. But, in those circumstances, it's better just to make wanker gestures with a free hand )

Silent Mammary wrote

what winds me up is..................... that is no fast lane. it's the outside OVERTAKING lane. end of.

I always thought it was the overtaking ONLY lane ?

Popeye wrote

This, in itself, is a good thing, because, in car or on a bike, you have to crawl passed them looking in through their passenger window increduously (You have to use your eyes a little more on the bike though, wearing a helmet. But, in those circumstances, it's better just to make wanker gestures with a free hand )

I've tried both options many times. They simply don't notice you are there. I was going to say a lot of peeple notice so little on the roads they may as well be wearing blinkers, but truthfully they might as well be wearing blindfolds

I love all the "I think..." and "I'm sure it's..."Undertaking on a dual carriageway or a motorway is an offence unless directed to do so by a Police Officer/Traffic Warden/VOSA Officer. Undertaking on a dual carriageway is also permitted when the right hand lane is showing intent (through indication and positioning) to turn right through an opening in the central reservation to turn onto a minor road. The second and third lanes are overtaking lanes only and the nearside lane is the only correct driving lane, irrespective of speed. If you come across a slower moving vehicle in an outside lane then you have only one "legal" option, and this is correct, you are able to make your presence known by use of your lights and/or horn. You are showing your intention to progress and you can only wait for the driver/rider in front to acknowledge your presence and move into the normal driving lane.Well, that's the theory but we all know that we will blast up the inside and just get on with it. So, legalities aside we all do it anyway.

MyLittleStudPony wrote

I'll tell you what annoys me - if I'm in the fast lane and there's cars ahead so I can't go any faster and some twat comes up very close behind me.

Likewise!

Angry Painter wrote

I love all the "I think..." and "I'm sure it's..."Undertaking on a dual carriageway or a motorway is an offence unless directed to do so by a Police Officer/Traffic Warden/VOSA Officer. Undertaking on a dual carriageway is also permitted when the right hand lane is showing intent (through indication and positioning) to turn right through an opening in the central reservation to turn onto a minor road. The second and third lanes are overtaking lanes only and the nearside lane is the only correct driving lane, irrespective of speed. If you come across a slower moving vehicle in an outside lane then you have only one "legal" option, and this is correct, you are able to make your presence known by use of your lights and/or horn. You are showing your intention to progress and you can only wait for the driver/rider in front to acknowledge your presence and move into the normal driving lane.Well, that's the theory but we all know that we will blast up the inside and just get on with it. So, legalities aside we all do it anyway.

I beg to differ. The highway code clearly states.

Quote

268Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

So if you are in the inside doing 70 and the overtaking lanes are full of dickheads nose to tail at 65, then there should be no issue with you continuing in your lane.There is no such offence as undertaking, however you could be done for dangerous driving.

We do see occasional cremations on the M25 so I guess undertaking is ok.

be carefull undertaking traffic on a bike, 9 times out of 10 they dont look in the mirrors and think a simple indicator will do, if they can be arsed to flick it on that isand the get out clause is 'sorry mate I didnt see you' while your 200 yards down the hard shoulder, and its your fault for undertaking anywayonly undertaking now is by some twat in a black suit and a silly hat walking slowly in front of a horse drawn carriagefuck what the law says, use yer common sence

I frequently undertake these arseholes , and sound the horn the whole time I'm passing to draw attention to their piss-poor driving. As Jeremy Clarkson says, if there's enough room for me to undertake, there's enough room for them to move over. Imagine how much less congestion there would be if everyone obeyed the Highway Code! Apart from the speed limits, natch. If pulled by the scum of the earth, I would argue this case vehemently, as they are the ones clearly in the wrong.I hate lane hoggers!!!!

JamesZX-6R wrote

Here here. The standard of driving in this country is shockingly bad. Drive down the a13 of a weekend and see how many immigrants you spot driving in the outside lane. Its not there fault they dont have motorways in india and they are allowed to drive on our roads without sitting a uk test or have an training, they know no better. Undertaking aggressivly and pulling back out infront of them should be made legal and compulsory.

Oh Jesus, Indian drivers. Let's not get started on that. Truly, truly fucking frightening!Do you know, in India, there are around 200 casualties on the roads EVERY DAY!!!

MAC wrote

I beg to differ. The highway code clearly states.So if you are in the inside doing 70 and the overtaking lanes are full of dickheads nose to tail at 65, then there should be no issue with you continuing in your lane.There is no such offence as undertaking, however you could be done for dangerous driving.

The Highway code is talking about continuous flow of traffic, the OP was talking about lane hogging in the outer lanes. Under these circumstances it is an offence to undertake. There IS a law against undertaking as it is considered to be dangerous driving. By doing so you are merely trying to make further progress using unnecessary means. But, as I previously said, we all do it and we all know the consequences of being caught for doing it. Being on a bike, however, means we have a better zone of vision and can use that to our advantage to see if there's any patrol vehicles around and act accordingly.

gojo1978 wrote

Oh Jesus, Indian drivers. Let's not get started on that. Truly, truly fucking frightening!

Not really.... As long as you stick to their ethos that the bigger vehicle always wins then its actually pretty easy to drive in India. As mentioned above our system sucks for letting them have a UK licence without the relevant training for our roads.

gojo1978 wrote

Do you know, in India, there are around 200 casualties on the roads EVERY DAY!!!

I'd hazard a guess that there are around 200 "casualties" on UK roads EVERY day.

We know one of the local cops and had a chat about this very subject. In his eyes, anybody deliberately changing lanes to undertake was just showing their complete lack of patience and regard for other road users and would be pulled over. What the actual offence is I don't know, but I've certainly not done it in the car since our chat with him.

gojo1978 wrote

Oh Jesus, Indian drivers. Let's not get started on that. Truly, truly fucking frightening!Do you know, in India, there are around 200 casualties on the roads EVERY DAY!!!

Twenty times the population too.That's almost the same per capita as us, and considerably better than the French - who have excellent lane discipline.

suzuki-boy wrote

Of course it's fucking illegal you idiot. Just think of the mess all the coffins would make never mind the dead bodies and flowers.

and besides isn't there a minimum speed on the motorway? Can those hearses keep up with motorway traffic?

gojo1978 wrote

Oh Jesus, Indian drivers. Let's not get started on that. Truly, truly fucking frightening!Do you know, in India, there are around 200 casualties on the roads EVERY DAY!!!

in India they drive on whichever side of the dual carriageway is most convenient.Driving from Delhi to Agra I saw 8 crashed trucks 2 crashed cars and a dead pedestrian.The dead pedestrian was still in a heap at the side of the road when i came back although the birds had started to peck.

To be fair, its not just the Indian drivers. I narrowly managed being clipped by a Polish estate car that pulled out from the middle to the outside lane for no apprant reason. Also, coming home through Chelsea most evenings can be a nightmare dodging Monoco registerd sports cars that seem to be driven by folks that don't understand right of way at junctions.

gojo1978 wrote

Do you know, in India, there are around 200 casualties on the roads EVERY DAY!!!

But the buggers reincarnate instantly whereas we're lost for good (usually locked up in hell). So they're not really casualties.

I've lost count of how many times this has come up and of how many times I have pointed out that overtaking on the left is NOT illegal. The HWC doesn't use the magic red capital letters for "MUST NOT" which indicate traffic law. I've discussed this with traffic policemen, and IAM and ROSPA examiners and they all agree; the latter two categories even said that if someone made the manoeuvre safely during a test they wouldn't fail, and even implied they'd get brownie points for making progress and showing they knew the law - though it would be a subject for discussion at the end of the test.What you might get doen for would be DD or without due care, but then you could get done for that when overtaking on the righ, though I suspect that the threshold of dangerousness is lower when passing on the left.The other consideration, of course, is that if it does all go horribly wrong then the person doing something which the HWC specifically advises against is more likely ot be come off worst in any litigation/prosecution.

Motorway.....what's one of them?

Atomic Punk wrote

Undertaking is not illegal as long as you haven't changed lanes to do so and you are not exceeding the speed limit.

So as long as you always make sure to pull over to the left after ever vehicle that you have overtaken then you could argue that you moved into the left hand lane at the end of an overtake (and there then just happened to be a queue of cars in the right hand lane that you are now passing on the inside). That's the line of reasoning that I always have in my mind to say to a police officer if they pulled me over... but none ever has...

dickymint wrote

I'd hazard a guess that there are around 200 "casualties" on UK roads EVERY day.

You'd hazard a wildly inaccurate guess. I don't mean injuries. I mean fatalities. 200 people per day are KILLED on India's roads. We don't even have a tenth of that amount.Plus, they don't come over here and get awarded a UK licence as you make out, no-one does. They drive on Indian licences. Which are bought, as opposed to awarded, in India. Where there are 200 fatalities per day in road traffic accidents.

haydn wrote

Twenty times the population too.That's almost the same per capita as us, and considerably better than the French - who have excellent lane discipline.

Use your loaf. India is a third world country. And don't give me any bollocks about it being an emerging superpower, it still has vast swathes of poverty you and I can only have nightmares about. With that in mind, do you think India has anywhere NEAR the same car ownership per capita as us? In terms of car ownership, we rank second only to the USA. We have a car in this country for EVERY two men, women and children. If India had that, there would be over half a billion cars in that country. Does that seem even vaguely plausible to you? Of course not.So let us not say we have similar casualties per capita as India.

gojo1978 wrote

You'd hazard a wildly inaccurate guess. I don't mean injuries. I mean fatalities. 200 people per day are KILLED on India's roads. We don't even have a tenth of that amount.Plus, they don't come over here and get awarded a UK licence as you make out, no-one does. They drive on Indian licences. Which are bought, as opposed to awarded, in India. Where there are 200 fatalities per day in road traffic accidents.

In 30 years of policing I never once had an Indian driving licence presented to me..Possibly because its not an exchangeable licence in the UK, and therefore is only valid for a visitor and not a resident..

Quote

Great Britain has reciprocal exchange agreements with Gibraltar and 15 designated countries. The designated countries are:Australia, Barbados, British Virgin Islands, Canada, Falkland Islands, Faroe Islands*, Hong Kong, Japan, Monaco, New Zealand, Republic of Korea*, Singapore, South Africa, Switzerland and Zimbabwe.

Perhaps a degree of stereotyping and prejudice is clouding your thinking

gojo1978 wrote

You'd hazard a wildly inaccurate guess.

So we don't have 200 casualties on the road in the Uk in a day?

gojo1978 wrote

I don't mean injuries. I mean fatalities.

Well say fatalities then.

gojo1978 wrote

Plus, they don't come over here and get awarded a UK licence as you make out, no-one does. They drive on Indian licences.

No but I believe that they are entitled to exchange their Indian Driving Licence for a full UK licence when they become residents. I am prepared to stand corrected on this as I really cannot be bothered to google it but my basis for this statement is the number of foreigners that come to us for training with not only full uk car licences but also full bike licences!!

gojo1978 wrote

Which are bought, as opposed to awarded, in India.

There is a car test in India

Were everyone on the road to drive on the left as the highway code states you should it would be near-impossible to "undertake".Aren't there other countries in Europe where it is an actual punishable offence not to move back to the left (or right depending on the country) after an overtake? I think it should be made mandatory here. It would cut congestion, improve driving skills and force lazy bastard "middle-laners" to be more attentive in their driving having to change lanes to overtake rather than sitting in one lane never turning their head or checking their mirrors. Having to regularly change lanes to overtake would also cause drivers to become naturally more pre-emptive when approaching slower moving vehicles, because they would get fed-up with driving to within a foot of a lorry's tailgate before the cogs start to whirr and they realise they should be looking for agap. The cops would earn more revenue for the force dishing-out £30 fines to people who refuse to drive on the left and have a much more positive effect on driving habits doing this than they ever would from setting-up speed traps, in my opinion.

dickymint wrote

No but I believe that they are entitled to exchange their Indian Driving Licence for a full UK licence when they become residents. I am prepared to stand corrected on this as I really cannot be bothered to google it but my basis for this statement is the number of foreigners that come to us for training with not only full uk car licences but also full bike licences!!There is a car test in India

You could have looked up ^^ as I posted details for you..and India is not included in the exchange scheme

Angry Painter wrote

The Highway code is talking about continuous flow of traffic, the OP was talking about lane hogging in the outer lanes. Under these circumstances it is an offence to undertake. There IS a law against undertaking as it is considered to be dangerous driving. By doing so you are merely trying to make further progress using unnecessary means. But, as I previously said, we all do it and we all know the consequences of being caught for doing it. Being on a bike, however, means we have a better zone of vision and can use that to our advantage to see if there's any patrol vehicles around and act accordingly.

The poster I quoted stated that it was illegal to undertake unless instructed to do so by a police officer. This clearly isn't the case.I'm sure that you will also find that there is no specific charge of "undertaking" you would be charged with danerous driving or similar

gedge wrote

You could have looked up ^^ as I posted details for you..and India is not included in the exchange scheme

Fair comment However, your list does not include places like Slovakia and the Czech Republic. We have definitely had students from these countries who have received full uk licences in exchange for their respective licences. Indeed one of them received full bike entitlement with no previous training..... Is this a European thing? We also had a South African fella turn up in full one piece leathers, scuffed sliders etc etc with a full SA bike licence who had to pass the UK test because his SA licence was about to expire?? Was this just him being useless and not using the system in place??

MyLittleStudPony wrote

I pushed the centre stand down onto the road with my heel and covered him with a shower of glowing sparks - he soon backed off.

did you really do that, i so want to do that now :smoke:i always thought the bike would flip if the center stand spring broke and the stand dragged along the floor i'm gonna try that tomorrow do something that scares you everyday. ^^^ that'll be my one tomorrow if i don't come back on here tomorrow & report, it means the bike flipped & i'm dead ....& its your fault

dickymint wrote

Fair comment However, your list does not include places like Slovakia and the Czech Republic. We have definitely had students from these countries who have received full uk licences in exchange for their respective licences. Indeed one of them received full bike entitlement with no previous training..... Is this a European thing? We also had a South African fella turn up in full one piece leathers, scuffed sliders etc etc with a full SA bike licence who had to pass the UK test because his SA licence was about to expire?? Was this just him being useless and not using the system in place??

SA fella was obviously a knob as he could have exchanged unless he was utside the time to do so..Czech and Slovakia arent included AFAIK as they are not EU countries ( are they:confused..That list came from here so I am guessing that it is pretty accurate...www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/DrivingInGbOnAForeignLicence/DG_4022559

You want to see bad lane usage? Go to Australia. The fuckers (probably those damned immigrants again ) often sit parallel to each other across both lanes. Doing 50mph. What gets my goat on our roads is those who just sit in the overtaking lane when not overtaking anyone. Including many a bike i see. Just sitting there, thinking that because they are doing 70 ish they shouldn't move the holy fuck out of the way. Bloody arseholes.

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