Pragmasis 16mm chain test.

101 to 120 of 121 messages
16/11/2007 at 16:47
tronlc wrote
The Almax will shatter with a sledge and freeze spray?


Indeed, but needs a big fucking anvil placed under it as well. Not likely to be lumped around by your average tea leaf. It still took a fair few goes to let go though. If your chain had not too much slack and was off the ground it would be difficult to break either the Almax or the Pragmasis chain.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/091/434/1306506-pool-timing.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/R6_Allan/Chat/LoLuv.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/R6_Allan/Chat/chunkinvincible.gif
16/11/2007 at 16:50
just out of curiosity, how do the two chains compare price wise like for like?
16/11/2007 at 18:03
hipringle wrote
just out of curiosity, how do the two chains compare price wise like for like?


£80 ish for 2.0m Pragmasis (16mm)
£100ish for 2.0m Series III (16mm)
£135ish for 2.0m Series IV (19mm)

Personally for the home I'd have the Almax IV.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/091/434/1306506-pool-timing.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/R6_Allan/Chat/LoLuv.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/R6_Allan/Chat/chunkinvincible.gif
16/11/2007 at 18:09
_Allan_ wrote
£80 ish for 2.0m Pragmasis (16mm)
£100ish for 2.0m Series III (16mm)
£135ish for 2.0m Series IV (19mm)

Personally for the home I'd have the Almax IV.


yes I would too, got a series 111 & also a good 24mm anchor chain that weighs a bloomin ton, its only about 4 ft long tho

prices are good tho & prob the best competition to keep almax on their toes, you never know they might make a 19 mm in the future...

thanks for the rep[ly.
16/11/2007 at 20:00
I thought it was possible to buy portable anvils.
16/11/2007 at 20:14
CoolHands wrote
I thought it was possible to buy portable anvils.


It is, but you need to have something of sufficient mass so as to reflect the hammer impact back into the link rather than pass it though the floor. Even my 100kg anvil has been driven through my patio floor because of the repeated hammer blows. Keep it off the floor and the Pragmasis will perform as well as an Almax but just be aware that it's very brittle and won't take much to shatter. As I said, given the cost difference I'd rather pay up and go for the extra protection of proper case hardening.
16/11/2007 at 20:34
Zanx wrote
It is, but you need to have something of sufficient mass so as to reflect the hammer impact back into the link rather than pass it though the floor. Even my 100kg anvil has been driven through my patio floor because of the repeated hammer blows. Keep it off the floor and the Pragmasis will perform as well as an Almax but just be aware that it's very brittle and won't take much to shatter. As I said, given the cost difference I'd rather pay up and go for the extra protection of proper case hardening.


so whats the debths of the hardening then Zanx?

Phil.:smoke::smoke::smoke:


http://i21.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/d3/21/596f_1_sbl.JPG
MONG99
16/11/2007 at 20:58
kris_gb20 wrote
So come on CS, what have you done for the cause?


I have argued and proselytised about the folly of demonstrating how to steal bikes that aren't protected by one suppliers product. If you don't see that as supporting 'the cause' errr...I don't care very much. It's my view and I'll keep on stating it. It isn't my job to demonstrate that these activities don't increase bike theft, I'm passive...it's the job of those that are active to demonstrate that they don't increase it.

If you want more than that, then here goes:

Visordown isn't generally known for having a population of people that get the vapours when confronted with robust, dark humoured, argy bargy. If people don't like robust then they're in the wrong place. If they don't get dark humour...umm...work on it.

In human terms I have no personal axes to grind against Zanx and what he's doing. I don't think in terms of malice and I hope he doesn't see it that way from what I've said. If so, I apologise.

I disagree with what he's doing not with his intent. I haven't met him but I imagine he is a very nice bloke with good intentions and I admire him for it. In that respect my, sometimes acerbic, posts aren't posted to give him grief, they're aimed at the people I think go 'Baaa baaaa' in support of this particular campaign for greater bike security that, to my eyes anyway, looks like a way of getting people to dump their current stuff and spend money with Almax and increases bike theft.

I see it like this:

If I got into an alliance with Renault and started doing roadshows around Europe and publicising in detail on the web, how to steal our competitors cars, there'd be a bit of a bother. You'd be a bit brassed off if, using a particular technique that I'd demonstrated, your Ford got swiped maybe?).

If I got into an alliance with a home security provider - alarms, Abloy, whatever and publically demonstrated how to burgle houses that were fitted with competitor products, I think the old bill would be having a word.

(I have also taken issue with those TV progs that explain scams in enough detail to generate an explosion of the same ones in my area within a couple of weeks).

Zanx, if you think this is personal, then, like I said, it isn't, I don't have any reason for it to be so. I disagree with some of what you do and I disagree quite strongly (not withthe reasons you may do it)...and use this arena to do it a la mode of Visordown. If I had the money to fund you to set up an independent testing and consultancy business I'd do it (provided that the roadshows and web stuff stopped of course).

On the other hand, while the roadshows and the links (arf!) to one manufacturer go on...I'll keep gobbing off. It's a free world at the moment, I have a view, people may or may not like it. Tough.

Like it or lump (hammer) it people. I'll keep spending 0.000003% of my life arguing about it.


PS. Someone asked what chains I used. Why? Do you want to know whether to bring croppers, sledge, carbide wheel, freeze spray or biro cap?
16/11/2007 at 22:48
Count Steer wrote



PS. Someone asked what chains I used. Why? Do you want to know whether to bring croppers, sledge, carbide wheel, freeze spray or biro cap?


SOMEONE???? SOMEONE??????

Just wondered if you were someone who'd bought something they thought would be up to the job of protecting your bike only to find out it's made of 'cheese'
16/11/2007 at 22:58
Collier wrote
SOMEONE???? SOMEONE??????

Just wondered if you were someone who'd bought something they thought would be up to the job of protecting your bike only to find out it's made of 'cheese'


My bad.

(I knew it was you really, but tried to stay 'impersonal'. )

In answer to your perfectly valid original question, I have two chains, neither of them have been used for a year. One is Abus and I haven't a clue (without going and looking) what the other one is.

Don't worry, my agenda isn't 'Oh lumme! I spent this money on security and it's worthless'...it's as stated in my immediately previous post. To summarise: showing people how to steal things is bad juju. Particularly when those things are 'protected' by competitors products.

I may be a bad man, I may burn in hell. But I'll burn with a bright,clean flame unburdened by guilt at what I've done.
16/11/2007 at 23:21
Count Steer wrote
I see it like this:

If I got into an alliance with Renault and started doing roadshows around Europe and publicising in detail on the web, how to steal our competitors cars, there'd be a bit of a bother. You'd be a bit brassed off if, using a particular technique that I'd demonstrated, your Ford got swiped maybe?).

If I got into an alliance with a home security provider - alarms, Abloy, whatever and publically demonstrated how to burgle houses that were fitted with competitor products, I think the old bill would be having a word.



Being fair to Zanx, I think he's probably told people here what they need to use to remove an Almax chain.

Training info is (C) Malcolm Palmer. He asserts his right to be identified as author under the Copyright Design Patents Act 1988 & may be quoted only as part of a post in the Visordown bb by another board member. Author should be contacted for written permission before any other use, storage, transmission or recording, by any means.

Read my mutterings:

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/

16/11/2007 at 23:55
Horse wrote
Being fair to Zanx, I think he's probably told people here what they need to use to remove an Almax chain.


Freeze spray and a sledge?

Ah, Hoss you do not differentiate between the public shows and the e-world perhaps. In the comfort of our own little public bar, it may have slipped out that freeze and whack may do the trick.

Not quite the same as the rest of the road and media show I'd say.

I try not to be 'unfair'.
17/11/2007 at 09:31
Count Steer wrote
Freeze spray and a sledge?


I think he's given other technical - even if in the real World 'unlikely' - technical advice.

Training info is (C) Malcolm Palmer. He asserts his right to be identified as author under the Copyright Design Patents Act 1988 & may be quoted only as part of a post in the Visordown bb by another board member. Author should be contacted for written permission before any other use, storage, transmission or recording, by any means.

Read my mutterings:

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/

17/11/2007 at 09:31
NB Using the word 'advice' as in 'information', not as in "Well, mate, here's what you need: . . . . "

Training info is (C) Malcolm Palmer. He asserts his right to be identified as author under the Copyright Design Patents Act 1988 & may be quoted only as part of a post in the Visordown bb by another board member. Author should be contacted for written permission before any other use, storage, transmission or recording, by any means.

Read my mutterings:

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/

17/12/2007 at 12:33
Anyone got one of these "PINS" yet? Not sure if it ever got tested by anyone for the security value either....
17/12/2007 at 20:08
tronlc wrote
Anyone got one of these "PINS" yet? Not sure if it ever got tested by anyone for the security value either....


Yes I have one, very happy with it too as well as with the service from Pragmasis. makes using my series IV that much easier.



Every man carries a circle of hell around his head, like a halo. Every man, every man has to go through hell to reach his paradise
16/04/2008 at 19:30
stickysidedown wrote (see)
tronlc wrote
Anyone got one of these "PINS" yet? Not sure if it ever got tested by anyone for the security value either....


Yes I have one, very happy with it too as well as with the service from Pragmasis. makes using my series IV that much easier.


Glad that people are happy and finding the Anti-Pinch Pin useful (http://www.torc-anchors.com/anti-pinch-pin.php).

Sorry I've been slow to say, but some might be interested that we are now offering heatshrink sleeving with the Pin as well, for those situations where it is going close to bodywork/etc. For liability reasons, we won't supply it already shrunk onto the Pin, just in case someone ignores our advice and rests it on a glowing exhaust - We deliberately use 'flame retardant' sleeving, but we don't want anyone using their red hot bike to test how flame retardant it is!

Cheers,

Steve.


--
Pragmasis Limited - Security by Bikers, for Bikers!
http://www.torc-anchors.com
03/05/2012 at 12:57

Hi,

Steve here from Pragmasis. I know this is an absolutely ancient thread with all sorts of distractions and opinions, but I thought it's about time I added a couple of comments relating to events over the ensuing 4 years!

The OP was claiming our 16mm chain was very brittle. That was our very first batch after Almax changed their previous policy and switched to direct sales only, and gave us two weeks notice of that change after we'd been selling their chains for ages prior to that. We then spent 2 months hunting around looking for a genuine British chain manufacturer that was any good. We could only find chain-making machines lined up to be scrapped in what used to be the heart of the world's chain-making region. Very sad. One supplier that told us they had been supplying Almax until recently said they had a batch of Czech Republic chain produced to a spec from Almax. We don't know if any of that was true but it is what we were told. We took samples and tested it, using a sledgehammer and a big thick steel plate and various other things. We couldn't break it, despite lots of attempts. Not all thieves are as big as Zanx, and neither are we. We had been unable to supply any chains for 2 months by then so we agreed to buy the whole batch and that was our first batch of 16mm chain. It is relatively ancient history now but we still stand by it as a good quality chain and we couldn't break it and neither could Sold Secure (I know, there's lots of opinions out there about them - and things have changed significantly there since a lot of the earlier comments - and we have our own opinions about Thatcham, but none of that is really key to this thread).

Since then, we've produced a lot of batches of 16mm chain (and widened our range to include 19mm and also 11mm and 13mm for the pushbike side of things), using chain from several different factories and with different processes. We have pursued improvements all along the line and have been using French raw chain for years now, with heat treatment and plating and deembrittlement(*) all done in the Midlands. People may not realise that those processes are all critical to producing a decent security chain, as is the starting point in terms of raw material/steel grade and the way the links have been formed and welded. We use 20MnB5 boron steel and are happy to say so - the boron makes a huge difference to the low-temperature toughness and to the heat treatment response - most other manufacturers won't tell you any nitty gritty information at all! We've added some videos to our web site recently (not slagging-off the competition or giving tips to scotes, but just showing our stuff so people can make their own decisions about what suits their needs) and intend to add another to give some close-up guidance on how to look at a security chain and get a feel for whether it might be any good - there are still lots of big-name manufacturers producing rubbish quality chains and quite often you can get a hint of that just by looking at the things.

(Continued...)


--
Pragmasis Limited - Security by Bikers, for Bikers!
http://www.torc-anchors.com
03/05/2012 at 12:58

(Continued from above)

 (* - "Deembrittlement" is an important process related to plating of hardened steel items and it needs to be done within hours of the plating process to prevent hydrogen micro-cracks that can grow through the material over time, potentially causing failure. A big-brand chain has been made for a long time without deembrittlement on the basis that 'it's not required as a security chain is not subjected to tensile stresses during its life so the cracks won't grow'. We don't agree with that thinking as, although the chain may not be towing a ship (or more likely a fishing net) all its life, who's to say there aren't residual manufacturing stresses left in the chain links? The problem, of course, is that a lot of platers can't do deembrittlement and the ones that can have to charge more for it. Hence, our costs are higher because we do things properly. The same people also buy cheap Chinese chain and do cheap heat treatment.)

It all comes down to costs and to your priorities. Our priority has always been to produce stuff as well as we can and profit is and always has been a way down the list, below UK manufacture actually, as well. And yes, you can rant about what that means but for me it means we are using local firms to do the processes we can't do ourselves. I walk into those places and they are pleased to see me. We are producing stuff to the highest standard we can and are helping to keep them in business.

I've said before and I repeat that we'd be happy to provide a sample of our current chains, Torc ground anchor (Series II now) or Anti-Pinch Pin to Zanx if he wants to test them. We are happy for our products to be compared, properly, with anyone else's.

And we're happy to answer (sensible) questions, as always

Steve.


--
Pragmasis Limited - Security by Bikers, for Bikers!
http://www.torc-anchors.com
05/05/2012 at 07:00

 it's great to hear that Pragmasis is putting a good effort regarding this product

softdenn

101 to 120 of 121 messages
Forum Jump