Boris Johnson threatens bikers

BBC report

Support No to Bike Parking Tax ! It might be "only £1" today but it's the thin end of the wedge. If you have had enough of being shafted by stealth taxes, join us in making a stand. If we win this, who knows what else could be possible?

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It's all swings and round-a-bouts mate, dont forget Boris also allowed bikers to use bus lanes.

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 From alternators to zip-ties, Wemoto's got it, and we'll send it anywhere.

 VFR Owners club, monstering young whippersnappers on R1s. *

*with 3 piece luggage, the wife and her dog.

"Transport for London was authorised by the Mayor in 2002 to set up two test areas in which motorbikes and scooters can use bus lanes - the A23 in Brixton and the A41 Finchley Road." Don't believe he was mayor then. Either way, it doesn't give him the right to threaten those engaged in lawful protest. Not very democratic.

Regardless, the point is putting a stop to the new parking charges before they become as ubiqitous and expensive as parking meters (introduced by our friends at WCC).

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Yesterday's evening protest

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Mea culpa, I thought the 2009-10 bus lane trial covered all of gtr london.

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 From alternators to zip-ties, Wemoto's got it, and we'll send it anywhere.

 VFR Owners club, monstering young whippersnappers on R1s. *

*with 3 piece luggage, the wife and her dog.

I only knew 'cos I live near the A23

Anyway, regardless, I reckon anyone who doesn't like the way parking is enforced should help us make a stand. Otherwise, this will never stop and we will just become cash cows for greedy councils...oh, we are already, aren't we? If you want more, you are free to ignore. If you've had enough, join NTBPT and say so.

PS £1 today, £5 tomorrow.

PPS I wonder if anyone picks up a PCN for failing to notice they are in a pay bay will say "Oh, it's only £80"? I bet they will make more from m/c bay fines that the fee.

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Stop whining and take your car, that way you will only pay £11 a day congestion charge and around £30 a day for car parking..Cash cows? looks to me like car drivers are getting stung far harder than bikes....some people dont know when they have it good..( you may note that other places already charge for bike bays) the service doesnt come free so why should non biker subisidse you??

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Tu cara= mi culo 



www.thewheelieschool.co.uk/

But where is the 'service' you are talking about? Westminster don't provide secure facilities and bikes are basically forced to share a cramped multi-use bay which are woefully inadequate. The idea that anyone should be forced to pay to stuff their bike in a crowded bay where it'll be pushed scratched and moved around all day is ridiculous. Bike parking costs nothing, there is no 'service' involved whatsoever its merely a facility and a poor one at that. No car driver would pay to force his car into a space shared with 20 others!

No-one is subsidising anything, Westminster is merely turning a vast profit from bikers and as Esinem states once the principle of paying to park your bike is accepted it will spread like a disease and the cost will rise. Bike bays cost nothing whatsoever, they require zero maintenance and once they're in place thats it.

So you have a form of transport in London that made a lot of sense (much more than any other in fact)- quick, cheap and convenient and causing zero congestion being removed simply because Westminster Council have seen an opportunity to raise revenue. Thats a great shame and is why people are very unhappy with all this. They are an utterly cynical bunch in Westminster parking who simply view parking as a means to generate a vast surplus of revenue, and unfortunately its bikes that have come under their greedy noses. Its unjust, its unnecessary and completely at odds with encouraging motorcycling in London.

gedge wrote (see)

Stop whining and take your car, that way you will only pay £11 a day congestion charge and around £30 a day for car parking..Cash cows? looks to me like car drivers are getting stung far harder than bikes....some people dont know when they have it good..( you may note that other places already charge for bike bays) the service doesnt come free so why should non biker subisidse you??

@gedge If you don't like paying CC and £30 parking, what are you doing about it, apart from whining about it to me? Maybe it's time to protest? At least, we are making a stand. Apathy allows them sting you harder. How long before these charges double? I think you'll find objections and protests are why every city doesn't have a CC.

Bike bays have traditionally been free. Congestion is only caused by too many of the wrong type of vehicles. So, the idea is to encourage people to use the right sort. Ergo, continued free parking for non-congesting vehicles and discourage those that cause the biggest problems. Anyway, most of it has sweet FA to do with congestion and traffic flow and more to do with the £ signs in the council's eyes. Easy money! WCC makes £80m pa from parking!

Does it not occur to you that there is something very wrong when penalties for being a minute or so over your time or stopping for a couple of minutes in the wrong place attracts a greater penalty than criminal acts such as theft or violence? Do you ever stop to ask why it costs around the minimum wage to bring a car into London for the day (excluding any fines you might inadvertantly pick up)? If policing was carried out as vigilantly as parking enforcement, I suspect we'd have every crim banged up in a few weeks! When will you agree, enough is enough?

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Agreed.

Esinem wrote (see)

@gedge If you don't like paying CC and £30 parking, what are you doing about it, apart from whining about it to me? Maybe it's time to protest? At least, we are making a stand. Apathy allows them sting you harder. How long before these charges double? I think you'll find objections and protests are why every city doesn't have a CC.

Bike bays have traditionally been free. Congestion is only caused by too many of the wrong type of vehicles. So, the idea is to encourage people to use the right sort. Ergo, continued free parking for non-congesting vehicles and discourage those that cause the biggest problems. Anyway, most of it has sweet FA to do with congestion and traffic flow and more to do with the £ signs in the council's eyes. Easy money! WCC makes £80m pa from parking!

Does it not occur to you that there is something very wrong when penalties for being a minute or so over your time or stopping for a couple of minutes in the wrong place attracts a greater penalty than criminal acts such as theft or violence? Do you ever stop to ask why it costs around the minimum wage to bring a car into London for the day (excluding any fines you might inadvertantly pick up)? If policing was carried out as vigilantly as parking enforcement, I suspect we'd have every crim banged up in a few weeks! When will you agree, enough is enough?

We can't all have what we want. Cause and consequence. If we remove the congestion charge, London would be more congested, quite simply.

It's ridiculous to campaign for something without any forward thinking as to the things that will happen as a result of achieving what you are campaigning for.

There was a Mitchell and Webb sketch on Radio 4 once about drowning warnings...the theory being that if nobody ever drowns, far too much money is being spent on the warning sign. Whilst not saying that warning signs are a bad thing, resources are finite and should be allocated where they are needed, not based on individual's needs from an idealistic viewpoint.

In the same way, from an individual 'what's best for me, right now' viewpoint congestion charging is bad, as is £30 per day parking charges. But think what would happen if they were removed? If you could get into central London before night time, do you honestly think you'd get a parking space?

Same with bike parking. I'm against it, personally, on the basis that bikers should be encouraged and free parking is a big draw. In fact, I think that more, secure bike parking should be introduced. But, to say it doesn't cost anybody any money and that no service is being provided is simply short sighted and ignorant.

There's a parking bay. You either rent it out to cars, for money, or let bikes park in it for free. OK, if you were charging the bikes, maybe you should be a little clearer about exactly what space you are paying for by marking out individual bays. But, space is at a premium in central London. It costs a lot. To 'rent' it out for free is in some people's view, insanity. So they've decided to charge for it...not completely unreasonable. Short sighted and not a good idea; yes, I think so. But I can see where they're coming from.

Forcing bikes en masse into crowded shared spaces is not providing a service, its simply extortion and Westminster know this as they've noticed how profitable it is to charge for something which they've always provided for free.

Parking spaces do not cost the council anything, they're merely a part of the road which everyone pays for already via road taxes. Yes they have chosen to cynically turn this into a gross revenue raiser but nonetheless it does not cost them anything, its just an approach to making life more difficult for everyone while lining their own pockets simply because people have no option other than to pay for it. Which really is the problem with London generally as a place, the authorities are hellbent on making life as difficult as possible for the people who either suffer the misfortune of living or working there.

They may not actually cost anything, but they could rent the space out to cars and make money...so by allowing bikes to park for free they are losing revenue. It's not about fascism and a lack of appreciation of the band 'Rage Against The Machine', it's a simple business decision.

There's something sat there that could generate revenue but isn't doing so. In this day and age of skint councils that's always going to raise questions.

The issue is whether or not they should put 'business' aside for the sake of bikers and ultimately London traffic.

The issue is actually whether their consultation was genuine and fair I think actually, and there's a lot to suggest it was neither in terms of the legal challenge being put to them. 

Councils can't simply introduce new parking rules without adhering to the principles and there's a lot of evidence that they did not in forcing this through without any fair hearing.

Theres also a ruling that parking should not be used as a means to create excess profit, something which Westminster are clearly in jeopardy of. Parking should not be viewed as a business decision and local authorities aren't 'businesses' either, they're there to serve our interests as the tax-paying electorate not their own. Councils are composed of public servants, that is they are there to serve our interests not the other way around.

At the end of the day they should bow to the extent of public feeling and stop acting as if they're a law unto themselves. The parking charge is unpopular, unnecessary and doesn't benefit the people being forced to pay it. Its only rationale is as a stealth tax.

It amazes me how apparently hellbent the London authorities are on making life in that hole more miserable than it already is.

Esinem wrote (see)

@gedge If you don't like paying CC and £30 parking, what are you doing about it, apart from whining about it to me? Maybe it's time to protest? At least, we are making a stand. Apathy allows them sting you harder. How long before these charges double? I think you'll find objections and protests are why every city doesn't have a CC.

Bike bays have traditionally been free. Congestion is only caused by too many of the wrong type of vehicles. So, the idea is to encourage people to use the right sort. Ergo, continued free parking for non-congesting vehicles and discourage those that cause the biggest problems. Anyway, most of it has sweet FA to do with congestion and traffic flow and more to do with the £ signs in the council's eyes. Easy money! WCC makes £80m pa from parking!

Does it not occur to you that there is something very wrong when penalties for being a minute or so over your time or stopping for a couple of minutes in the wrong place attracts a greater penalty than criminal acts such as theft or violence? Do you ever stop to ask why it costs around the minimum wage to bring a car into London for the day (excluding any fines you might inadvertantly pick up)? If policing was carried out as vigilantly as parking enforcement, I suspect we'd have every crim banged up in a few weeks! When will you agree, enough is enough?

were I daft enough to work in London I would go by bike and I would choose a location where I can park safely,,if that cost me a pound instead of £40 I would happily pay it..its a service and as such I think the users should be the ones to pay not the taxpayers who dont ride bikes...

as for the penalties for not paying?? more fool anyone that chooses to do so instead paying a pound!!your assertilon that parking fines are greater than penalties for other crimes is largely incorrect and where the penalties are lower it is usually means tested but at the end of the day 'if you cant do the time..................'

PS if solving crimes was as easy as detecting parking offences they would be all cleared up..sadly its not the case, and comparing the two is fairly pointless...

1 Traffic warden can detect dozens of offences a day... and as the offences are there to be detected what would you have them do? walk past doing nothing?

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Tu cara= mi culo 



www.thewheelieschool.co.uk/

cheeseybeaner wrote (see)

The issue is actually whether their consultation was genuine and fair I think actually, and there's a lot to suggest it was neither in terms of the legal challenge being put to them. 

Councils can't simply introduce new parking rules without adhering to the principles and there's a lot of evidence that they did not in forcing this through without any fair hearing.

Theres also a ruling that parking should not be used as a means to create excess profit, something which Westminster are clearly in jeopardy of. Parking should not be viewed as a business decision and local authorities aren't 'businesses' either, they're there to serve our interests as the tax-paying electorate not their own. Councils are composed of public servants, that is they are there to serve our interests not the other way around.

At the end of the day they should bow to the extent of public feeling and stop acting as if they're a law unto themselves. The parking charge is unpopular, unnecessary and doesn't benefit the people being forced to pay it. Its only rationale is as a stealth tax.

It amazes me how apparently hellbent the London authorities are on making life in that hole more miserable than it already is.

simple maths says one bay could hold one car at £3 pe3r hour or around £30 a day or 5 bikes at a pound a day ( less is they chose the one of £100 a year payment I believe?)...so however you think of it,the bays are less cost effective than if they are turned over to cars, notwithstanding the CC which benefits someone...if not Westminster CC directly..

I think you are mistaking the 'anger of bikers' with the anger of 'public feeling'..I suspect the vast majority of the public are at best indifferent to bikers having to pay a pound, and I suspect worse than that some would think a pound is rather too cheap compared top what they have to pay

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Tu cara= mi culo 



www.thewheelieschool.co.uk/

Well they aren't really 'offences' as such so much as the opportunistic fining of people going about their everyday business as best they can.

'PS if solving crimes was as easy as detecting parking offences they would be all cleared up..sadly its not the case, and comparing the two is fairly pointless...

1 Traffic warden can detect dozens of offences a day... and as the offences are there to be detected what would you have them do? walk past doing nothing?'

'were I daft enough to work in London I would go by bike and I would choose a location where I can park safely,,if that cost me a pound instead of £40 I would happily pay it..its a service and as such I think the users should be the ones to pay not the taxpayers who dont ride bikes...'  But the taxpayer already pays billions in road tax for the upkeep of the road. It isnt a 'service' of any sort merely an imposed facility in that you are forced to use it rather than anything else.

Bikers or bike commuters are the 'public' in question here, the strength of public feeling should therefore have been addressed.

In any case the issue isnt the pound so much as the principle of paying for something which has always been free. Once the pound is accepted it will before long become five pounds and so on making bike use prohibitively expensive.

gedge wrote (see)

cheeseybeaner wrote (see)

The issue is actually whether their consultation was genuine and fair I think actually, and there's a lot to suggest it was neither in terms of the legal challenge being put to them. 

Councils can't simply introduce new parking rules without adhering to the principles and there's a lot of evidence that they did not in forcing this through without any fair hearing.

Theres also a ruling that parking should not be used as a means to create excess profit, something which Westminster are clearly in jeopardy of. Parking should not be viewed as a business decision and local authorities aren't 'businesses' either, they're there to serve our interests as the tax-paying electorate not their own. Councils are composed of public servants, that is they are there to serve our interests not the other way around.

At the end of the day they should bow to the extent of public feeling and stop acting as if they're a law unto themselves. The parking charge is unpopular, unnecessary and doesn't benefit the people being forced to pay it. Its only rationale is as a stealth tax.

It amazes me how apparently hellbent the London authorities are on making life in that hole more miserable than it already is.

simple maths says one bay could hold one car at £3 pe3r hour or around £30 a day or 5 bikes at a pound a day ( less is they chose the one of £100 a year payment I believe?)...so however you think of it,the bays are less cost effective than if they are turned over to cars, notwithstanding the CC which benefits someone...if not Westminster CC directly..

I think you are mistaking the 'anger of bikers' with the anger of 'public feeling'..I suspect the vast majority of the public are at best indifferent to bikers having to pay a pound, and I suspect worse than that some would think a pound is rather too cheap compared top what they have to pay

cheeseybeaner wrote (see)

Well they aren't really 'offences' as such so much as the opportunistic fining of people going about their everyday business as best they can.

'PS if solving crimes was as easy as detecting parking offences they would be all cleared up..sadly its not the case, and comparing the two is fairly pointless...

1 Traffic warden can detect dozens of offences a day... and as the offences are there to be detected what would you have them do? walk past doing nothing?'

'were I daft enough to work in London I would go by bike and I would choose a location where I can park safely,,if that cost me a pound instead of £40 I would happily pay it..its a service and as such I think the users should be the ones to pay not the taxpayers who dont ride bikes...'  But the taxpayer already pays billions in road tax for the upkeep of the road. It isnt a 'service' of any sort merely an imposed facility in that you are forced to use it rather than anything else.

No one is forcing you to drive to London or to pay for parking,,,it is up to you to find somewhere to park, the council has no obligation to provide for you and does so as a service and also as a way of raising revenue to pay for the upkeep of services..... that you cannot see this is going to cloud your judgement but go and ask your grannie if she thinks she should pay more council tax so that you can park for free??

PS westminster council wont see any money direct from the road fund licence..and even if it was all spent on the roads it still wouldnt be enough to cover their full upkeepand improvements

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Tu cara= mi culo 



www.thewheelieschool.co.uk/

cheeseybeaner wrote (see)

Bikers or bike commuters are the 'public' in question here, the strength of public feeling should therefore have been addressed.

In any case the issue isnt the pound so much as the principle of paying for something which has always been free. Once the pound is accepted it will before long become five pounds and so on making bike use prohibitively expensive.

gedge wrote (see)

cheeseybeaner wrote (see)

The issue is actually whether their consultation was genuine and fair I think actually, and there's a lot to suggest it was neither in terms of the legal challenge being put to them. 

Councils can't simply introduce new parking rules without adhering to the principles and there's a lot of evidence that they did not in forcing this through without any fair hearing.

Theres also a ruling that parking should not be used as a means to create excess profit, something which Westminster are clearly in jeopardy of. Parking should not be viewed as a business decision and local authorities aren't 'businesses' either, they're there to serve our interests as the tax-paying electorate not their own. Councils are composed of public servants, that is they are there to serve our interests not the other way around.

At the end of the day they should bow to the extent of public feeling and stop acting as if they're a law unto themselves. The parking charge is unpopular, unnecessary and doesn't benefit the people being forced to pay it. Its only rationale is as a stealth tax.

It amazes me how apparently hellbent the London authorities are on making life in that hole more miserable than it already is.

simple maths says one bay could hold one car at £3 pe3r hour or around £30 a day or 5 bikes at a pound a day ( less is they chose the one of £100 a year payment I believe?)...so however you think of it,the bays are less cost effective than if they are turned over to cars, notwithstanding the CC which benefits someone...if not Westminster CC directly..

I think you are mistaking the 'anger of bikers' with the anger of 'public feeling'..I suspect the vast majority of the public are at best indifferent to bikers having to pay a pound, and I suspect worse than that some would think a pound is rather too cheap compared top what they have to pay

Westminster council represent the interests of its residents and I am sure they will outnumber the bikers by a considerable margin..so in a democracy it will be the majority wishes that win..

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Tu cara= mi culo 



www.thewheelieschool.co.uk/