how long before he jumps ship ?
but who to?
Gees...seems that Rossi might be getting close to breaking point with Ducati. I must say, the sport seems all the poorer for this situation with the former champ and Ducati. The Aussie in me says "see, it just shows how damn good Stoner is that he rode the Duc so successfully" - but then I really want to see Rossi performing as great as I know he can, the prospect of him bowing out of MotoGP on the back of such poor performances is very saddening (but I think it's becoming more and more likely).
how long before he jumps ship ?
but who to?
I know this shows Casey in a good light but it's also about riders matching machines and their styles complementing. Do we really think Rossi is a poorer rider than Nicky? I doubt it. I could imagine Vale retiring before the season is out.... well, no, not after the recent quotes from a certain Roman....
Ducati need to replace that CF swingarm with an alumimium one, and run the same as everyone else. If they had problems with it for the frame it seems strange you would not suspect the swingarm may be contributing to their handling woes.
They could also play around with some ballast in testing before considering repositioning the engine.
And Valentino, I can help you get back your edge, but I don't know how to contact you - seriously.
Rossi to WSB then BSB, can't wait.
Everyman and his dog has an opinion on this, some are sensible, some are just people trolling. At the end of the day, it's simply not fucking working. I still say Bologna have heard everything the team have told them, and some of it they've taken on board. And some they've not. It's the stuff they've not that is causing the problems (I think).
They are still clinging to the spectre of Stoner. And it's going to cost them, massively.
Until such a time as Bologna start to listen, I'm not going to bother anymore, this has taken up well over a year of my life bike racing wise. And I'm not prepared to devote anymore time to it. The bikes shit, end of, it needs a DRASTIC rethink (again).
The Ducati has been a career killer but to kill the career of the greatest of all time? Who would want to be on that bike in the future..?? Lots of riders flocked to Ducati hoping the Rossi Burgess magic would deliver them a great bike but when current contracts expire no-one will want to sling a leg over it.
Aspiring riders from junior classes won't want to go near it and Ducati's future in MotoGP will be very bleak...
It think better ducati listen to rossi demand. They are always make a new chasis and design but...remember..not all design and suit to rider like rossi. Let wait what the ducati comment on it
The 800 bike even ruined the Moto GP Career of Marco Melandri, Ducati said it was all in his head!!!
Don't see them trying that shit with Vale.
Really hope they sort it soon!
Exactly Marco was (and still is, class).
I was musing over the weekend just gone. That the Honda was having issues (or at least everyone else apart from Stoner) seemed to be having issues with the Honda during qualy....#justsaying..
I can't say other than it seems like Ducati trying hard. The Ducati 990 had a big issue with the engine being too long and the front wheel touching the valve covers and radiators under braking. The 800 solved that problem with the smaller engine, but the engineers reached a point where they couldn't find ways of making the trellis-framed bike better. So the went for the carbon frame in order to save weight, and balance the bike more controlled with weights instead. Problem is that a certain frame flexibillity sideways is crucial to front grip in deep turns. Honda and yamaha have worked allot with frame flex. read: "MotoGP Technology - Neil Spalding"
The reasoning behind the carbon frame, I don't know, but it didn't work good enough. Then the cc went up again, and Ducati got back the old bugger of a too long engine. They had a crappy frame and a too long engine. They had to rethink and went for an alu-chassis for the flex, and tilted the engine backwards for space(I suspect they even put the rear spring under the engine, put I dodn't know this), finally ending up with some sort of a Honda. Honda have had V4 and alu frame forever, Ducati tries first time.
Time will show. Let's hope the soon new owners has more money than Honda...
Soooo, whos got money on the super sic tribute team appearing befor the end of the season, running a satalite honda with a certain Mr Rossi onboard?
Sooner he walks away from ducati the better if you ask me.
I said I wasn't doing this.......bugger.
Really good points made there Ole. This evolution of the engine HAS been tilted back, but, listening to the omnipitent sage that is Neil Spalding over this weekend, it looks like Bologna still have a VERY long way to go with setting the "V" in the correct place. It's been moved back, there's no doubt about that, but, it's still using the 800 config (cases etc) apparently. And in order to work out where it needs to be with a 1000 it's gonna take more time. The ONE thing Ducati don't appear to have an awful lot of right now..
Yes, it's their first departure into a conventional frame, and FTR are doing all they can. But I can't help thinking there's still some pigheadedness coming out of the factory along the lines of "Stoner made it work"...
The problem I have is that it simply makes no difference what they do, it will not do what VR wants it to. I've no doubt they are all working VERY hard. And thats the real kicker..
S'a good point mobus. Won't happen though. As said above, who on earth is gonna want a Duke after this?
That and VR is no quitter....
Everytning Neil Spalding has said about the Ducati appears to be right. If Spalders can see the issues and he's been banging on about them for the last couple of years, why can't Ducati.Spalders, even said before the race that he thought the engine and it's positioning and crank case size etc, were as much of a problem as the chassis, others here have alluded to it. Maybe in estoril we will see a new engine and postion. We will ahve to wait and see. The problem is that there has been next to no developement time for this bike. So Hayden and Rossi are only really testing at the moment. Barbera at least has a little consistancy with what he road at the end of last year.
He takes the money to represent the brand.
(HUGE, MEGA MONEY)
I'd took the Pagik oath and said I'd leave this one alone for a bit as well, but hell, I'm gonna bite.
Until Ducati drop the corporate mantra and the well Stoner could win on it, they're not going to put it on the podium, it's that simple.
Rossi isn't past it, you don't loose talent and 33 is no age, look at Carlos in WSBK. I do think he's had a massive knock on his confidence though, and I think the only thing that will get it back if having a bike under him that he and his team can work with.
I questioned why when the testing rules were relaxed why they didn't go out and run laps on the bike and suss it out, now I think I know it's because the team realized it's pointless as input had been ignored and there was no one it'd get up front.
The word on twitter seems to indicate a new iteration of the chassis, a changed swingarm and a possibly new motor are coming in the upgrade pack, if that happens, and if the parts are good then maybe they'll fix it. I think spalders is spot on, and if they close that L/V maybe they can get the weight where they need it.
The problem they now have though is Yamaha and Honda are so close, neither will stand still, so they've got that gap to close plus the gap to catch whatever Honda/Yam do next.
I do think though, if they do get a bike out that doesn't oversteer, responds to setup and has reasonably good rear grip, a bike that'll get Vale around 4-6th on the grip, he'll smell blood and ride again, until then, he's not going to lay it on the line for 5th or 6th.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone that thinks a MotoGP bike correlates to a companies road bike (at least these days) needs a good firm head inspection. I don't see Honda bringing out a V4 Blade anytime soon, has it stopped people buying repsol reps? nope, not at all.
I also now feel, if Ducati can't get this right, they'll never get the top riders wanting to ride on it, they'll always be the 3rd choice for a top rider. I think Ducati and Rossi and Co are stronger together, both really need each other at the moment, and together they might still be able to do something special.
Spalders has mentioned, on several occasions that Ducati are on a development plan, and it is far from complete, it'll take time. The big question at the moment is if they're actually going to repack that engine. If they choose not to, short of putting the rider on the tank, they're screwed. I really hope they get it sorted, not just for Vale, but for Ducati and the other riders that'll ride the bike in the future.
Dude, you can contact him on his Facebook page or you can twitter him/management.
please make me understand; all the things that are being suggested here to change on the bike, surely they have been changed? things like engine positioning, frame composition, swing arm comp, suspension, aero etc etc etc.... they have italian and swedish egg heads working 12 hour days to make the thing work, or am i deluded to assume this? :-)
the bike is clearly a problem, this is obvious because we dont see hayden or barbera winning any races on it either, both of them world champs... but why is it that the doc is running at the back? i feel it is a combination of the bike and rider. sort the bike, and youll have hayden and barbera as front runners, but is Rossi really gonna jump to first? maybe the dog has had his day, 9 world titles isnt something to be sniffed at!
its like haga, melandri, vermulen, checa, biaggi etc etc. they have all moved from grand prix riding to WSB and BSB, because they have had their run at the top and are ready to have some fun at lower competition levels. maybe its time rossi went back to kicking biaggis arse, colin edwards can go with him and make room in the grand prix for some new talent. im definately not suggesting Rossi isnt capable anymore, i merely feel he would be better off racing at a lower level and kicking arse up the front of the field as opposed to keeping the CRT guys happy.
and commence the slagging.....
Uccio will make everything better.....
everybody blaming Ducati,
If we put Richard Petty back in the Daytona 500 and he didn't win was it the car?
Instead of adjusting your balls for all to see on the warm up , Grow a set and ride the bike. They pay you millions so shut up and ride it.
Listen This super world champion cant be losing his touch in two seasons. Stoner said he knows what is the problem with ducati but he wont reveal anything. Ducati is to big for The docter and should listen to him and like all the manufacturers before them let the bike be built around rossi he has never failed any bike before. Jeremy burgess an rossi is a winning combination and always will be. Ducati think they are to big of a company to let individuals give input to their technology. This is so sad. Why in Gods name do they fare so well in wsbk but fail in motogp. Rossi should leave and someone will pick this icon of motogp and give him a chance to redeem himself.
Like Rossi Im no engineer so I won't comment on the technicalities, but its clear that VR is pissed and the Ducati is shite. I've never heard words like that come from his mouth. Even things between him and JB sound a little sketchy going on JB's comments alluding to VR being older. I'd say it could be the last year for VR in GP, which is real real sad. He could go to WSBK on a good bike and have fun. Fun is what he needs, and its clearly gone for him with this bike, and he could kick Biaggi in the arse again.
It is surprising to read these comments that Rossi made about the bike because it feels like he is giving up on the season. You never expect that from Rossi. The man is not familiar with losing. He is a legend, a champion, and has had different challenges in his career which he has taken head on. However, he is seeing Honda improve their bikes while the Ducati is still trying to figure out its identity. He must really feel that the gap is too wide in order for him to make comments such as this.
If Rossi were to change teams, I could see him rejoining Honda and finishing his career there because he started on a Honda in the MotoGP class. One person mentioned that Rossi could retire before the season is over. I do not agree with that. He would try to make at least one more run on a competitive bike. He is too competitive to quit before the season is over as he still has a contract with Ducati.
And for people who mention about Stoner doing better on a Ducati back in 2007, these are the same people who also forget to mention that 2007 was the first year that they went to the 800cc engines and the Ducati definitely had a speed advantage throughout the season on the straights. Stoner is an awesome rider and is definitely the future, but please do not ignore the facts. It would be fair to say that the Honda bikes of today are closer to the Ducati of 07 in terms of dominance versus the rest of the field. Jorge will be competitive this season because he's a hell of a rider. The Desmo right now is an absolute mess.
Anyone else notice that Rossi kind of disrespected Hayden in the comments he made?
"I can't ride this bike, I can't make the difference, I can't even keep up with Hayden's pace, who I used to go quick against in comparison."
Translation: I can't even finish higher than Hayden who I used to always beat head to head. I can't believe I finished worse than him. OMG.
He almost sounds like Sergio Garcia from this week's Masters. Pretty strange thing for him to admit to the press.
First thing to say is Casey did not win his WC with Ducati on a CF frame.
His WC was on the last of the steel trellis frame bikes. As soon as Ducati started using a CF frame Casey started turning on the gravel magnets and complaining of exactly the same problems that Vale has.
Casey described the last Ducati he rode the GP10 as sometimes so bad it was all he could do to stay on to the end of the race.
Vale first rode the GP11, This a bike that even Ducati described as "radical" compared to the GP10, We all know how that ended.
Looking at the GP12 yes it does have a "conventional" aluminium chassis but it was designed by someone who has no experience with aluminium, Built by a third party company to Ducati specs and then mated to an engine that has been described as having such a brutal power delivery profile that it pushes the front wheel.
Where will this end up?
My guess is that when VW complete their takeover of Ducati we will see a new machine from the ground up designed & built by people with experience of aluminium 7 a much narrower V angle to assist weight distribution & packaging. At least that is what the chairman of VW group who admits to being a massive bike fan has said he thinks it will take & when he is the man in charge I would guess he will more than likely get what he wants.
Appreciate your insight Nigel, but the GP12 was supposed to have been built from the ground up as well. Hopefully, you are right.
I don't think the Ducati is bad.. Hayden was 6th, right about where he was when Stoner was winning on it. Barbera also had a good ride by satellite bike standards. Rossi is clearly not riding as he was in the past or he would at least be in front of Hayden, his own words. I'll be surprised if Rossi finishes the year at Ducati...or in GP.
at least rossi is honest now. he does not have the same make up as other riders. stoner in particular and now hayden is showing his dirt tracker style to ride the bike. in some ways i feel sorry. in other ways i wonder why he is not changing his focus. some one of his abilities to say he is giving up does not make sense.
Finally somebody else points out facts in the Rossi/Stoner debate. I welcome your observations my friend but it is shocking how many people do not seem to realise this. I would also like to point out that Casey Stoner had tyres made specifically for his Ducati while he rode it whereas Valentino Rossi did not. This is why Nicky Hayden was also a lot slower the following year on a similar bike.
Quite simply you do not win 9 World Championships and forget how to go fast.
Firstly, if Rossi can't ride this sad excuse for a GP bike, it's useless, that's for sure.
Secondly, if Ducati insists that the problem lies with Rossi rather than their 'flamboyant' engineering skills, why don't they get Troy Bayliss to test the bike in front of a credible audience of journalists (without gagging them) the day after the next race, and publicize the results?
True, Troy is still on their payroll, but he certainly won't bullshit - he'll ride the crap out of this thing, and either it's fast around the track, or it isn't... if it turns out that this 'weapon of the gods' is as useless as it appears to be, the Ducati bosses should be the gentlemen they pretend to be, and offer Rossi a Golden Handshake (and release him from his contract) - he'll ride circles around the Ducatis on any CRT or privateer bike for the rest of the year, and will make a staggering come-back on any normal-performing factory bike in 2013!
... and Ducati, you should approach Instagram for sponsorship - your bikes are very good for photos (and little else) indeed...
Very well said Robert. Agree 100% there.
I realise we're not going to get anything from Preziosi. But it would be good to be a fly on the wall in that office right now.
Nothing wrong with the fkn bike! For a bike that is relatively 'newer' than the Honda and Yamaha evolutions, it is simply a good rider away from being a regular contender.
If you think Stoner couldn't race for the win on this bike (or Lorenzo, maybe even Pedro?) then you are nucking futs!
And, if you think just because Flo's head is full of Stoner, it's gonna prevent anyone wanting to ride a duc, well here's a fkng headline for you and the rest of Engaly...
Flo is no longer the inspiration for younger riders who want to be the best. For that, see last weekends podium!
btw Pagik, 'spectre of Stoner', 'nothing from Preziosi', the old 90degV chestnut? If you really are a fan of the sport, you'll apologise for sounding like such a tragic, and I'm not just saying that cause you're a Flo fan, but because it really is so pathetic.
Looks like his problems far outweigh his ability. I said it last year and I'll say it again. He bit off more than he could chew. Don't get me wrong, I know how good Rossi is but a man has to know his limitations!
As for suggestions that he should regroup on a satellite bike......! Honda and Yamaha no longer need him, he's not their future. Maybe go talk Suzuki/Kawasaki into a return at least they fielded "normally" configured bikes. All doctors lose a patient once in a while, a great reputation is at stake here. I wish him luck, I'd hate to see his career end badly.
Oh Bob, you really are a legend. No, really you are, now, toddle off petal, the adults are having a nice chat...
If you're VERY good we'll bring you some crisps and a bottle of pop..
I can't believe a legend like Rossi can lose his once limitless talent so quickly. So I choose to knock the thing that has changed, the bike. He took one season to master the evil 500cc and win, he very quickly mastered the Honda V5 then got bored n went to Yamaha. Remember how crap it was before he rode it? Then he got beat fair n square off Jorge. Rossi was still very quick n if I remember right, was that the year he broke his leg at Muggelo? If that's right then surely he only lost the title due to a nasty injury? Then the Italian went to ride another underdog bike, who only the man with the spoilt brat attitude Stoner could, the Duke. It seems stoner was riding amazingly well (I know it was slightly different with tyres n frame) but my respect for stoners riding went up a lot.
I'm gutted that Rossi n the duke combo doesn't work, but I can't see him leaving the team before the end of the year. Someone said earlier that Rossi would ride on Marco's team bike. That would be well received, I think by everyone except Honda, I don't think they would want him back?
I have a horrible feeling that this is one of the ways true legends are 'faded' out.
I think one thing to mention is all the work Rossi did with the evolution of the M1, starting at the earlier years of the 4-stroke era. Initially Yamaha was lost on how to build a competitive bike and the world's expectations were extremely low. With Rossi's input and gradual improvements to the machine over the span of Rossi's work with Yamaha, the situation was turned around and the iteration we have now is a very special package. Initially, Colin Edwards was fast on the factory bike, Lorenzo won a championship, the satellite Tech3 team is competitive, and Rossi won four championships with his time at Yamaha on a bike that no one thought could win in the beginning.
You also have to consider how the past two years have been hard for Rossi with his broken leg in 2010 and the loss of Simoncelli. Rossi is in a position where confidence is crucial and if the Ducati isn't helping him any along with those who are developing the GP12, than it's obvious he is in a bad situation. I don't know what the exact solution is, but I know Rossi is capable of turning this situation around. If Rossi really is at odds with those developing the machine he's riding, it's like him beating his head against a concrete wall.
It seems to me, that when he left Honda for Yamaha, the Yamaha was a fine bike, lacking in raw power, but stronger in other places, a suitable (usable/predicatble) platform for Rossi to race and win by race craft.
Whereas with the Ducati race craft isnt going to make the diffence (at least currently).
2010 was when he broke the leg at Mugello but Lorenzo was allready on a massive roll then, and somewhat from 2009, if Rossi hadnt broken his leg, I still think Jorge would have taken the title.
I don't know where the future lies for Rossi. Honda will not take him back, there was bad blood there apparently, nor Yamaha. This was always the fear if this latest Ducati didnt work, that it could be the end. Rossi is too big to hang around in lower teams like a lot of riders do.
Unless however, he wants to go to WSBK, which I reckon would be the most likely if he wants to stay on bikes, and would be a hoot for WSBK and Rossi.
Rossi likes and needs fun, look at his personality for goodness sake - which is the best sporting personality Ive ever seen in any sport bar none, West Indian cricketers from the 80's are second and the only thing that comes close - it needs fun to function.
This to me explains his outburst; he aint having fun at the moment, he needs fun, and its a big big problem for him that he isn't. Go to WSBK Rossi and liven it up for us, for me WSBK is a bit of a yawn-athon at the moment.
But this also leads me to believe he'll head to rally cars for pusuit of fun and where he knows he's damn good too.
Yes Pagik, keep avoiding the truth. That way you can continue to be the 'king of the kids' while debating why it's not Flo's fault.
I love when people cannot admit that VR and JB cannot figure the bike out. The whole factory is to their disposal yet you still hear that they don't do as they say ..... it's getting tiring, seriously.
Let's see who is happy next year... when Ducati prices increase again to cover the costs of the massive GP effort. Strangely enough at the same time that there is a massive 'reduce cost' drive to their own production and part suppliers.
Considering the impact the cost of the GP has on so many lives and businesses... Rossi should take his millions and RIDE the best he possibly can. He is on "TEAM DUCATI" not "TEAM ROSSI"
Having listened to the motopod cast this morning. Dennis Noyes shed some really good light on this. As written above, it's been a case of Ducati essentially saying "our way or the highway" to everyone, including Gibernau and Melandri.
Marco told them what he needed to make it go quick, and they essentially told him it was all in his head.
Only problem now is, with VR, they cannot do this. But, from what I can see, it's not stopping them trying....VR's grinned and bared it. Until now.
Really?? Stoner seemed to do alright on it... :)
Well, if there's something with big racedrivers, it's that they're all about taktics. Rossi knows that he needs support now. So he go to the media and indicate that Ducati isn't too worried about his rider feedback. I can't believe that Duke couldn't make a new crankcase if they wanted too, so why they don't?
I think Ducati regards their "bad boy" image, of having a so powerfull bike that only a few can ride, very high. They are also extremely busy being different than the others, and probobly regards aluminium frame as a setback.
We know Rossi likes nimble bikes with good braking and turning abillities, but now he has a bike with one of the greatest top speeds, but poor braking feel. We have seen earlier how much trouble Hayden have had passing other riders with this bike. Rossi have with Yamaha showed how much more nimbleness is worth compared to brutal power.
They don't fit together, and if Ducati still wants this power-image, They won't make it. Audi might see this potential and force a change in thinking. Maybe thats Rossi's reason for going public with his complaints towards Dukes engineers.
Stoner have an abillity too hold full throttle no matter how bad the bike shakes. Lorenzo is the master of clean lines. Rossi is all about tactics and brilliant passing others. Hayden likes to slide dirt-track style. But Rossi can do a little of everything and nobody can make a pass like him.
But as history has shown, many great racedrivers have calmed down when friends and fellow riders has died in the sport. Toseland quit because he was afraid of his piano hands.
I think Audi in charge is Rossis best hope. We'll see.
Valentino Rossi was dominant in the era before 'Control' tyres Michelin flying in new rubber for the race following technicians input throughout practice.
When Bridgestone entered the fray and Casey Stoner was winning on them Rossi 'dumped' the Michelin's and went to Bridgstone. 'cos he wanted to beat Casey.
Valentino Rossi has only been a dominant force in the control tyre era iun the mindfs of Dorna and the marketing men. Jerry Burgess says he can't beat Stoner or Lorenzo....but he can't beat his own team mate, so what is the real problem.....
.....Valentino Rossi has had his own way of developing, and riding the bikes for years now coming toward the end of his gareer HE can't adapt his riding style to suite the bike.
Tell Casey Stoner the Ducati is "unrideable" tell Loris Capirossi, tell Nicky Hayden....tell Troy Bayliss, one ride one win. They adapted their styles to suite Ducati.
Difference between Honda and Ducati?
Money plain and simple, Ducati are out of their depth and can't compete with the deep pockets of corporate Japan.
Perhaps Audi will cough the serious moolah needed to get on terms or perhaps they will ask why compete in two championships when WSB is dominated by them against all comers for nearly two decades..
Rossi can't have lost his talent but he has lost the backing of a company that can counterpunch like Big H.
I nearly feel embarrassed for him but he has had a good run and like Ago before him had several years with flimsy opposition.
Plus he probably has the price of a fair pension and millions of devoted fans who will keep him in ermine when he swans off to tootle around in Ferraris or whatever. His domination of the class has been to the detriment of the wider sport as it has become a soap opera of tedious proportions, bring on some cheap and cheerful racing.
The era of Spanish TV and tiny robot riders is turning Grand Prix into a bad copy of Formula One and soccer, where overpaid fairys mince about whining about their life, yep call me a Luddite but the days of Hailwood and Co now seem to have been a far better time with far better crowds and far bigger entries.
Just my tuppence worth
Has Anyone heard the rumour for next year Rossi making he's own team with cola cola using a yam m1