Worst advice?

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hawker
05/02/2002 at 22:41
Sorry if this has been done before, but what is the worst advice you have been given?
I have 2 candidates, and both from IAM riders:

First: "Raise yourself from the seat for slow turns so you put your weight on the foot pegs, and this lowers your centre of gravity"
Er, what?? Seems to defy the laws of physics to me, mate!

But better still, how about: "All this stuff about lifesavers goes out of the window over 35 mph"!! Oh really? And this from a senior IAM rider as well!

So were these good advice for a relative novice like me? No, you don't have to answer that.
Never store your vaseline next to your superglue.
The spout will fall off your teapot.
FJSRiDER.
06/02/2002 at 08:39
Originally dribbled by hawker
I have 2 candidates, and both from IAM riders:

When? On an observed ride? Conversation?

First: "Raise yourself from the seat for slow turns so you put your weight on the foot pegs, and this lowers your centre of gravity"
Er, what?? Seems to defy the laws of physics to me, mate!

It might not defy the laws of physics as although your mass is higher up you are only connecting to the bike through the footpegs and handgrips, not the seat as well - why do you think trials riders stand to use the machine? However there are easier ways to learn to turn that you should have been taught during a competent CBT session.

But better still, how about: "All this stuff about lifesavers goes out of the window over 35 mph"!! Oh really? And this from a senior IAM rider as well!

Depends on the context - on what you were doing and what riding skills you were working on. Read the DSA Motorcycle Manual - they advise that shoulder checks are not always necessary.

So were these good advice for a relative novice like me? No, you don't have to answer that.

Perhaps not - the problem is we don't know the context in which you were being told this - if you were having difficulty turning the bike and doing lots of unnecessary shoulder checks then perhaps not - but you observer needs to explain WHY he is making these comments and how it is going to help YOU.

Always ask if you are unsure of why you are being taught something - get them to explain - to your satisfaction
slamhound
06/02/2002 at 08:46
The worst advice I can think of giving you is to ignore the advice of people who having been doing something a lot longer than you.


in response to your specific points
a) Try going round a corner slowly standing on the seat and see if you can repeal the laws of physics. If you can then join a circus.

b) I'd quite like see what I'm about to hit when moving quickly, rather than slam into it while looking in the wrong direction.

Hope This Helps.


Apart from that, welcome, and I'll have a pint of milky tea please
Bonios
FJSRiDER.
06/02/2002 at 08:59
slamhound wrote

The worst advice I can think of giving you is to ignore the advice of people who having been doing something a lot longer than you.


Wrong. Just because someone has 'been doing something a lot longer than you' does not mean they have been doing it correctly at all.

Your reasoning would dictate that all older drivers would be perfect and never make mistakes. Do you really believe that to be true?
tuxracer
06/02/2002 at 09:12
The centre of gravity of a human body is somewhere around the stomach, therefore any movement that raises the stomach higher off the ground is raising the centre of gravity. Standing up on the pegs is going to raise the centre of gravity of the body, and also the centre of gravity of the bike/rider combination. This movement may help the body balance better by allowing leg movements to contribute to balancing, but it does NOT lower the centre of gravity - that is a basic physics thing, and you can't change those kind of rules without getting gravity to go upwards!
Alex.
06/02/2002 at 09:43
I have 2 candidates, and both from IAM riders:

No surprise there then

I've got nothing against IAM observers. While the advice is not always consistent, it's because observers are volunteers rather than professionals and that they are trying to push different style riders through the same test that they attract a lot of criticism.

Perhaps a small variance in opinion is to be expected. I doubt that all the professional trainers would tell you exactly the same thing, ideas evolve all the time. One example is going over the other side of the road before a left hander. Not everyone advocates this view.

But what was the situation?

But better still, how about: "All this stuff about lifesavers goes out of the window over 35 mph"!! Oh really? And this from a senior IAM rider as well!

I'd quite like see what I'm about to hit when moving quickly, rather than slam into it while looking in the wrong direction.

I'd probably reduce the lifesaver to a shoulder check when on dual carriageways/motorway.

The centre of gravity of a human body is somewhere around the stomach,

Speak for yourself






Okay okay
FJSRiDER.
06/02/2002 at 10:01
Alex. wrote

I'd probably reduce the lifesaver to a shoulder check when on dual carriageways/motorway.

Perhaps you'd like to tell us what you think the difference is between the two?

A lifesaver is the last check over your shoulder before committing yourself to a manoeuvre. That is all.

So if the last thing you do is look over your shoulder before maneuvering on dual carrageways/motorways it is a 'lifesaver'.

BTW - you are wasting your time - use your mirrors, remember your mirror history and concentrate on what is happening ahead. You only need a shoulder check if you have been inattentive prior to making your manoeuvre - you have been paying attention haven't you?
Alex.
06/02/2002 at 10:21
Perhaps you'd like to tell us what you think the difference is between the two?

I meant check to side vs. rear check behind.

So if the last thing you do is look over your shoulder before maneuvering on dual carrageways/motorways it is a 'lifesaver'.

Good point I wasn't being clear.

BTW - you are wasting your time - use your mirrors, remember your mirror history and concentrate on what is happening ahead.

True - but what if the danger is more likely to come from behind? Down a certain stretch of dual carriageway on a sunny Sunday you can get bikes that like to accelerate in a straight line very fast indeed. I tend to do it just to check that they aren't out of the scope of my mirrors - they don't cover everything behind me.

You only need a shoulder check if you have been inattentive prior to making your manoeuvre - you have been paying attention haven't you?

I only do the shoulder check as an additional bit - if necessary - after using mirrors.
Able Blade
06/02/2002 at 11:44
I was taught by CSM, (Southampton) to ride a bike, in the early 90s and was advised not to use my front brake, as much as the back.

The instructor also admitted,

"I never use the front brake"

Nice chap tho!
Slow, look, lean, roll!

www.tvam.org.uk VDTD31Int Funky#00

slamhound
06/02/2002 at 11:59
FJSRiDER wrote



Wrong. Just because someone has 'been doing something a lot longer than you' does not mean they have been doing it correctly at all.

Your reasoning would dictate that all older drivers would be perfect and never make mistakes. Do you really believe that to be true?



If someone gives me advice based on experience I don't dismiss it out of hand.

Unless it's from you, of course.
Bonios
diy
06/02/2002 at 12:53
There is an excellent example of why it is important to lifesavers and take note of what you see in the accident section of www.bikemovies.com. A chap just performs a wheelie and intends to turn left to go on round again (riding on the right remember). He does a quick check and turns to the left only to be hit by another biker pulling a wheelie past him on his left. The second bike T bones the first and both bikes slide to an expensive halt.

Although surprisingly both riders get up, the message here is.

Know why you are looking and react to what you see.

Unnecessary rear observations will at best waste your time and at worse cause you to ride into something.

There are plenty of times when a life saver is necessary, so each time you do one ask yourself what you are looking for. Also when changing position ask yourself what gaps you might have in your picture of the road behind you. Can this be solved with a lifesaver sholder check etc..
In which case it might be a good idea.
Horse
06/02/2002 at 12:53
Three spring to mind:

- "You just lean to go around corners"

That one's been around for how long?

- "Motorcycles: nasty, horrible, dirty, dangerous things"



- "The faster you go, the longer it takes to stop"

My first 'lesson' in advanced riding, the day I bought my 400four. Spent years ignoring those good words . . .



As for lifesavers/shoulder checks at higher speeds, a friend of mine put it quite succinctly:
"If you know what's there you don't need to look."

FJS's 'mirror history' has it's limitations 'though, and it's important to acknowledge them.


Standing on the footrests? Probably depends a lot on the bike as to whether it's even possible: can you comfortably ride a 'Blade or R1 while stood on the 'rests?


Learning from experience? Well I learned tailgating from the motorway rush-hour people, they do it every day and live to tell the 'tale', so it must be right!
I'd use counter-leaning instead.

Training info is (C) Malcolm Palmer. He asserts his right to be identified as author under the Copyright Design Patents Act 1988 & may be quoted only as part of a post in the Visordown bb by another board member. Author should be contacted for written permission before any other use, storage, transmission or recording, by any means.

Read my mutterings:

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/

Horse
06/02/2002 at 12:55
Standing on the footrests? Probably depends a lot on the bike as to whether it's even possible: can you comfortably ride a 'Blade or R1 while stood on the 'rests?

I'd use counter-leaning instead.


Learning from experience? Well I learned tailgating from the motorway rush-hour people, they do it every day and live to tell the 'tale', so it must be right!


Please refer to earlier post . . . then spot the deliberate mistook.

Training info is (C) Malcolm Palmer. He asserts his right to be identified as author under the Copyright Design Patents Act 1988 & may be quoted only as part of a post in the Visordown bb by another board member. Author should be contacted for written permission before any other use, storage, transmission or recording, by any means.

Read my mutterings:

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/

slamhound
06/02/2002 at 13:15
Horse wrote


Learning from experience? Well I learned tailgating from the motorway rush-hour people, they do it every day and live to tell the 'tale', so it must be right!

Strangely enough it's my experience that some of them don't live to tell the tale. Maybe no-one ever advised them not to.
Bonios
Alex.
06/02/2002 at 13:41
"If you know what's there you don't need to look."
'mirror history' has it's limitations 'though, and it's important to acknowledge them.

Agree with you.
Alex.
06/02/2002 at 13:42
Okay my advice...

€œPower gets you out of trouble€ - Anon, quoted often without context

HTH





...NOT!
Sociopath
06/02/2002 at 13:45
I don't think I've had any really bad advice.
Some oddities, though

On the CBT....
Braking - 75 p.c. front 25 p.c. rear (And there I was using 78 p.c!)
Always ride just left of the centre of your lane - and he meant always.

Elsewhere...
"Expect The Unexpected" Not good advice, not bad advice - Just meaningless and it's just not how the brain works. I always seem to hear this pearl in hindsight

I also enjoy listening to explanations of the physics behind countersteering.
Horse
06/02/2002 at 14:14
Sociopath wrote

I also enjoy listening to explanations of the physics behind countersteering.


Ha! Best yet!

Training info is (C) Malcolm Palmer. He asserts his right to be identified as author under the Copyright Design Patents Act 1988 & may be quoted only as part of a post in the Visordown bb by another board member. Author should be contacted for written permission before any other use, storage, transmission or recording, by any means.

Read my mutterings:

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/

diy
06/02/2002 at 16:32
In response to a new riders question.

Q:Should I buy xyz super bike as my first bike or will I kill my self.
A: It's the rider who is dangerous not the bike.


This doesn't address the issue that many powerful sports bikes can be:
- quite twitchy.
- easy to get over confident with.
- difficult to learn and develop on.
- make the rider too woried about crashing at high speed to experiment.

Not to mention that statisically an inexperienced rider IS more likely to kill themself on a powerfull bike.

The number of new riders I've met and heard about who don't ride over 6000 rpm or get up to 6th asap cos the power scares them. So they'd rather have their 150 BHP bike producing 70HP than buy a bike producing less power, that they can really explore.

Personally I'd say think about the CB500/ER5/GPZ (around 50 - 60PS) you learned on and ask yourself had you mastered it so much, that you need to buy a bike with 3 times the power? If not buy something to last a year 18months, get some NCD and upgrade when you have reached it's limitations.
Alex.
06/02/2002 at 16:54
Yeah.

For the really powerful bikes, don't most insurance companies recognize this and require solid riding experience of several years (if not NCB) - or doesn't that matter if you're older?
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