Winter riding

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DrDonnyBrago

15/12/2009 at 15:01

Hi, just thought I would ask how differently do you all ride during winter compared to summer...

Specifically: on the odd sunny days between the snow, ice, rain and darkness how much slower do you take corners to take into account the effect of the cold on your tyres and the road?

The warm months of this year were lost on me as I had only just passed my test; as I continue to practice through winter I am just wondering how much traction is lost due to cold roads?

Cheers all for any input

If the Earth is the size of a pea in Britain, then the Sun is a beachball 50m away, Pluto is 4km away, and the next nearest star is in Tokyo. Now shrink Pluto's orbit into a coffee cup, then our Milky Way Galaxy fills North America

hextal

15/12/2009 at 15:59

I tend to take the corners slower and keep more upright - in particular on roundabouts, as they can be a good source of diesel, gravel and general crud (well around Leeds anyway).

Have to admit that I'm undoubtedly being too conservative in the corners at times at this time of year, though mainly due to me commuting in the dark, and often in not particularly well lit areas so I like to give some scope for error / unforeseen surface conditions.

I think it's also because i've lost the back end a few times recently on some slow corners due to me leaning over too much on cold tyres, and hitting some spilled gravel. Luckily managed to catch it by stomping my inside heal into the ground just as the back-end kicked out (a fortunate throwback from what I picked up trials riding I think).

I've read a few articles in some of the mags where investigators have stated that people have crashed due to not having enough confidence in the grip of the tyres. In that they have gone in too hot, panicked, braked / stood the bike up and gone off the road, whereas, if they had just pushed it over more they would have made it around with no fuss.

I've experienced this a few times on my first trip to ireland, went around a few bends too hot, panicked, stood the bike up, then managed to overcome my poor instincts, let off the brakes and pushed it over again. Ie - not only did the tyres get me around the corner, but they got me round it even after I had put the bike much deeper into the corner than it would normally have been.

I'm still trying to figure out the limits of my bike, my tyres and my riding. The first two are definitely way ahead of the latter.

Slightly off topic though it may seem, upgrading the bulb in my headlight did wonders for my confidence in riding in the dark. I swapped the std bulb for a phillips extreme (if I remember correctly) and the difference was significantly more than I would have expected for such a quick and cheap fix.

Edited: 15/12/2009 at 16:04

DrDonnyBrago

15/12/2009 at 16:53

They are basically my thoughts too, I have never been sure how much lean angle my bike and tyres can handle. Towards the end of summer as I was just getting into leaning the bike over and figuring out how much angle it can cope with (presumably a hell of a lot more than I can offer it) the cold struck and forced me to be more conservative.

I know people do trackdays over winter so presumably a fair amount of traction still exists, but it certainly deals a big blow to my confidence in the tyres. Anyone ever done one and wish to comment?

hextal wrote (see)

I've read a few articles in some of the mags where investigators have stated that people have crashed due to not having enough confidence in the grip of the tyres. In that they have gone in too hot, panicked, braked / stood the bike up and gone off the road, whereas, if they had just pushed it over more they would have made it around with no fuss. I've experienced this a few times on my first trip to ireland, went around a few bends too hot, panicked, stood the bike up, then managed to overcome my poor instincts, let off the brakes and pushed it over again. Ie - not only did the tyres get me around the corner, but they got me round it even after I had put the bike much deeper into the corner than it would normally have been. I'm still trying to figure out the limits of my bike, my tyres and my riding. The first two are definitely way ahead of the latter.

Thats a familiar story; in a tight, open view left hander near me I felt I was going in too fast, instinct had me pull in the front brake until the bike stood up and logic forced me to lean it in. I made it round but it was one of my more arse twitching moments on a bike. On a positive note, it did scrub off my left hand chicken strip .

I may look into some better bulbs, the 01 CBR ones are pretty bad, especially when covered in road salt, grime and the inside has fogged up.

Edited: 15/12/2009 at 16:56

The Spin Doctor

15/12/2009 at 19:46

Free tips from Survival Skills - Staying upright on icy roads

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

osmpsl bollox

15/12/2009 at 21:28

What I was taught at a very early stage and what I preach as an instructor now is KEEP YOUR VISION UP! Remember that the rear wheel will always follow the front and if you start to focus on the bit of tarmac directly in front of the leading wheel that is where you end up (normally) Generally most bikes will far exceed what we are willing to ask of them so have faith in your machine and never ride out of your comfort zone!

Alternatively ride like a twat, crash, and then blame someone else

Frisky919

16/12/2009 at 09:18

My winter commuter riding tends to be similar to my pillion riding. I change up the gears more quickly so as to not put too much power through the back end and my breaking changes from 80% front 20% back in summer to something like 60-40. It feels a lot smoother and a bit like driving miss daisy but its better than crashing!!!

When I'm up box hill or out for a razz on a winter weekend I tend to keep an eye out for shaded bits of road that may still be slippy and just ease off a bit until I'm back on the dry road. I also watch out for the low sun blinding you when you get round a bend.

take it easy.

M0ttyB0y

16/12/2009 at 13:33

On the cold dry days, as long as you're not using race rubber, you'd be amazed how much grip there is.

Race rubber operates at a far higher narrower temp.

Road rubber as a larger temp range.

However, what you can't account for are micro climates. These are ares of shade cover that will catch you out as you come round a corner because the cold temperature never dries the surface or even de frost ice in some cases.

Smooth smooth smooth is the key and yes do not lean too far but do not be scared to lean either, doing this will tense you up on the bike and cause more problems.

Bike Breaker

17/12/2009 at 05:32

Apart from when there's ice on the ground I don't change my riding style much at all but that will be because I don't push anything to the limit in good conditions so I think I've got loads of spare capacity to use before I'm in trouble when they're bad.

Regarding the tyre grip, mine are all fairly hard compound and aren't affected much by temperature so, coupled with my lack of power, I've never worried about losing grip when the road is cold. I do try to make sure I've plenty of tread depth for wet weather riding, though.

I'm slow and use my controls gently anyway so my experience isn't much use to you. There is one hazard I can think of that is worse in the cold and that's petrol spillages. It can be as slippery as diesel but normally evaporates quickly. In winter it stays around for longer. Fortunately for me I've never slipped on diesel or petrol. Yet.

Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

DrDonnyBrago

17/12/2009 at 18:02

Good answers all thanks...

I don't tend to thrash around too much anyway but it's nice to think I can have a little more confidence in my rubber; will certainly be more aware of shady patches from now on, hadn't really considered them beyond looking out for dark patches on the road in general.

Cheers!

The Spin Doctor

19/12/2009 at 09:53

Well, I hope you parked up the bike for the snow, if it snowed in your area!!

A friend's son tried to ride at 4am in the morning and crashed his brand new £10,000 Fireblade at the end of his road!

If you have to ride, get a ratbike with upright bars - it's much easier to handle.

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

The Black Prince

20/12/2009 at 09:07

In the winter I pay a lot of attention to the road surface, trying to pick a line that avoids shaded areas where ice may lurk. I look well ahead to pick the best line that will maximise traction and I will sacrifice speed for extra safety.

I take it pretty easy until I've got some heat in the tyres and I will certainly be more cautious in wintry conditions. I am not at all bothered by wet roads - though I do make sure the tyres I use have plenty of tread and good wet performance (I am on Michelin PR2's currently).

And I leave the bike in the garage when it is icy or snowy.

The Spin Doctor

20/12/2009 at 10:41

The Black Prince wrote (see)

In the winter I pay a lot of attention to the road surface, trying to pick a line that avoids shaded areas where ice may lurk. I look well ahead to pick the best line that will maximise traction and I will sacrifice speed for extra safety. I take it pretty easy until I've got some heat in the tyres and I will certainly be more cautious in wintry conditions. I am not at all bothered by wet roads - though I do make sure the tyres I use have plenty of tread and good wet performance (I am on Michelin PR2's currently). And I leave the bike in the garage when it is icy or snowy.

But be careful changing up lines too much at junctions...

Some posted a video of a rider keeping too far over to the left on the approach to a roundabout when going straight on... the car driver alongside in the middle lane thought he was turning left and tried to occupy the same space as they both moved forward onto the island.

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

The Black Prince

20/12/2009 at 10:50

Yes I agree. Defensive riding includes making sure that we position so that car drivers are not misled and cannot occupy our safety zone. Plenty of riders do not pay enough attention to rear observation.

The Spin Doctor

20/12/2009 at 11:05

The Black Prince wrote (see)

Yes I agree. Defensive riding includes making sure that we position so that car drivers are not misled and cannot occupy our safety zone. Plenty of riders do not pay enough attention to rear observation.

Well, in this case the rider was clearly aware of the car driver (who is a biker as it happens) because he looked over his shoulder at it, but the car driver assumed the bike was going somewhere it wasn't, partly through the layout of the junction, partly because of the biker's positioning and partly through his own misunderstanding of what the road markings meant.

The conflict in position came about because the bike had stopped at a red light feeding into the roundabout whilst the car driver hit the lights on the sequence rolling, and so they both arrived in the same space at the same moment.

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

DrDonnyBrago

21/12/2009 at 12:23

The Spin Doctor wrote (see)

Well, I hope you parked up the bike for the snow, if it snowed in your area!!
A friend's son tried to ride at 4am in the morning and crashed his brand new £10,000 Fireblade at the end of his road!
If you have to ride, get a ratbike with upright bars - it's much easier to handle.

Yeah my bike is well and truly parked up; some of it was even fortunate enough to have been removed, cleaned and stored in a spare bedroom whilst I sort out some electrical and mechanical niggles.

As for the snow, I was driving home in the cage about midnight yesterday when the snow struck - I was certainly appreciative of the two extra wheels, windscreen wipers and the heater.

m011i3

25/12/2009 at 21:56

The best advice i would give is to take your riding skills a notch further by signing up to IAM (Institute of Advanced motorists) or Rospa / RoADA (royal society for the prevention of accidents Advanced Drivers/Riders Association)

Just in case you did'nt know...

In the main these are charity organisations with enthusiastic volunteer members who offer masses of knowledge and skill to likeminded people for very little money.

All the opinions in the world- whilst well-meaning- might only cause confusion so its best to get proper, accredited training.

At the very least try the Bikesafe or Enhanced Rider Scheme programmes as a taster.

For the time being take reducing your speed seriously and ride gently over questionable road surfaces; as smoothly as possible using throttle, brakes, steering and posture.

Don't want to be a bore (to a newish rider) but reducing speed gives you more time to assess and react to road, weather and traffic conditions - and proper training will help improve your riding no end.

There is never a substitute for mileage under your belt so no fast-track methods here.

The Spin Doctor

26/12/2009 at 12:17

m011i3 wrote (see)

In the main these are charity organisations with enthusiastic volunteer members who offer masses of knowledge and skill to likeminded people for very little money.

RoSPA certificated instructors are usually running a commercial school, rather than voluntary. The IAM observers are volunteers but some IAM groups do run "pay for" courses on specific issues. In any case, by the time you've paid the IAM associate membership and test fee and any contributions to fuel costs, it's not actually that much cheaper than a course with an instructor like myself.

m011i3 wrote (see)

All the opinions in the world- whilst well-meaning- might only cause confusion so its best to get proper, accredited training.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.

The IAM don't do "training" - we've had this discussion more times than I care to mention on here, and are also only accredited by themselves. Neither has any of your advice been any different to anything that's been said above or in the articles I linked to that I've contributed on the subject, so I'm not sure where any confusion might arise.

m011i3 wrote (see)

There is never a substitute for mileage under your belt so no fast-track methods here.

This I 100% disagree with, or there would be no point in training courses of any flavour, CBT, DAS, IAM or any other advanced course, or in any other skill that you need to learn from learning a language to flying a plane.

The whole point of a training course (and where a structured training course scores heavily over the unfocussed "observed ride" method of the IAM) is that you are put into situations where you are given a challenge which you can achieve by using skills and knowledge you've just been shown.

"Practice" and how it aids in skill development is badly understood. Practice does not make 'perfect', it makes 'permanent' - practice the wrong technique and all you do is make that technique your instinctive solution to a problem. How many riders brake when they find they're too fast in a corner rather than steer?

Training courses also allow for you to explore in theory different ideas and situations that you aren't likely to come across whilst riding, but where some other rider with more experience might just have, so that you can learn from someone elses experience. Aquaplaning is a case in point - it's a very rare event indeed on a bike - in 850,000 miles, I've aquaplaned just twice - but I can describe what it feels like and what to do about it on a training course just in case you experience it.

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

The Black Prince

26/12/2009 at 12:43

Spin

Whilst I don't disagree with the general thrust of your comments, it is not entirely fair to say that the IAM observed ride approach is "unfocussed". I understand that you are a commercial trainer and hence have a business perspective that may encourage comments of this kind, but we do need to be balanced.

The IAM method does aim to identify particular areas that each rider aiming for the advanced test needs to work on. There is a method of recording this in writing so that if the associate sees a number of observers, they all know what is being worked upon. If the associate has a mentor (which is my preferred method) then the mentor will work at weaker areas. These are often specific things as improving cornering skill, but equally often they are general skills such as encouraging the rider to be more confident. The RoSPA group I'm familiar with operates similarly.

As to cost, IAM charges £139 for it's skills for life course. This gets you the new IAM book on how to be an advanced rider (which is quite good), the test fee, membership of your local IAM bike club and as many hours of observed rides as you need to get through the test. It also of course includes access to the social riding side of clubs - this is a big factor for many people. Some clubs ask for a voluntary contribution of £5 of £10 per ride, given to the observer to cover his petrol and bike costs. This is optional though and some observers refuse it and others (myself included) donate it to the training fund.

The amount of help that associates need varies hugely. But we try to deliver whatever is required - and sometimes this is very many hours.

It is sometimes better to go for professional training. Indeed this was the route that I took initially (I had a few days with a guy called Jon Taylor who is well known in this field). But to do so can be quite a bit more expensive than going the IAM or RoSPA route if you feel that you want several days of intensive training. I suspect that many riders who would benefit most from some training are not able (or sometimes not willing) to afford it. This particularly applies to some younger riders, unfortunately.

The Spin Doctor

26/12/2009 at 13:33

The Black Prince wrote (see)

I understand that you are a commercial trainer and hence have a business perspective that may encourage comments of this kind, but we do need to be balanced.

Absolutely - and without being rude, the IAM get more than enough air-time on this forum. So please treat my comments as balancing the books.

The Black Prince wrote (see)

Spin Whilst I don't disagree with the general thrust of your comments, it is not entirely fair to say that the IAM observed ride approach is "unfocussed".... The IAM method does aim to identify particular areas that each rider aiming for the advanced test needs to work on...

Again, I don't want to go over old, old ground that has been debated to death here on this forum (and elsewhere, come to that), but in my experience the IAM training is designed to produce a rider who will tick the boxes for the examiner they'll be presented to and get a test pass. Again, IME where the 'method' falls down is where a rider has a particular weakness - the observers very rarely have the experience to a) recognise the problem b) do anything about it. There's a marked reluctance inside the IAM to hand over a trainee to an outside instructor who IS qualified to do anything about it too.

The worst case I experienced was with a woman who'd taught herself to ride on a 125 (after CBT obviously) but couldn't brake and couldn't steer as her two main problems, yet was being taught advanced positioning and overtaking skills. She'd had a dozen observers and was perversely proud of the fact she was so bad her group was using her to train up new observers. Yet they hadn't fixed her faults in months and months of trying. It took me 60 seconds to detect the issues, and two sessions to more or less fix them. The biggest problem with her was trying to undo the damage the observers had done to their riding with their ill-suited advice. I won't say which group this was but suffice to say it's a well-known one.

If they're needing "hours and hours" of help, maybe you really should think about recommending they see a pro.

I don't want to denigrate the efforts of the observers, but they are doing the job a few hours a week in their spare time. I've got 14 years experience, at all levels from CBT to taking on police riders who want to look outside "Roadcraft", I work full-time, and I research what I do. I've looked at training regimes from a variety of different countries and I've swapped ideas with a whole bunch of instructors from various parts of the world.

The Black Prince wrote (see)

I suspect that many riders who would benefit most from some training are not able (or sometimes not willing) to afford it. This particularly applies to some younger riders, unfortunately.

But the IAM and RoSPA rarely attract 'younger riders'... IME they're mostly riding £5000-plus bikes with all the bling, whether that's GS Beemers with Touratec, or a Blade with an Akrapovic!

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

Edited: 26/12/2009 at 13:41

The Black Prince

26/12/2009 at 14:35

Spin

I wonder how current or extensive your experience of IAM groups is? (This is rhetorical not a challenge). Attending some observed rides does not convey much about how a group operates. One has to be involved for quite a while to get a balanced and realistic view. We must also recognize that things change over time and maybe were you to be involved with a good large group again you might see things in a different way if you approach us with an open mind. I expect clubs vary in quality - just as individual observers and indeed professional trainers do.

Your point about IAM groups not recommending professional trainers is an interesting one. I suspect that part of the reason for this, if you are correct, is that many IAM observers simply do not know many professional trainers. My own group DOES recommend professional trainers - and we use them ourselves sometimes. We have a good relationship with Rapid Training and the aforementioned Jon Taylor, among others. We also have a good relationship with a couple of DAS trainers and a training school run by a dealer. Obviously Geography plays a part.

I suspect that many IAM groups would welcome professional trainers such as yourself coming to talk to us. And I am sure that trainers with a good reputation and manner would get additional business this way.

As to the IAM getting too much air time on the forum, it is meant to cover advanced riding after all and hence is a broad church.

Please be assured I am not knocking professional training at all, Nor do I think the IAM way is right for everyone. I just think the "us and them" stance that we can get into in forums like this is unnecessary and might stifle an articulate exchange of views.

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