Transport Committee - The new European motorcycle test

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FJSRiDER.

23/03/2010 at 08:06

Straight to the 'Conclusions and recommendations' to see how the DSA are run by a bunch of incompetent arsholes.

(Amazing how this story will probably disappear from the news today - being as how 'A good day to bury bad news' ex-transport minister Byers is managing to still be an arrogant cock)

The Spin Doctor

23/03/2010 at 09:07

Thanks for that - I knew it was due out any day. Suspicions were that it wasn't exactly complimentary to the DSA or the DfT.

5. The off-road motorcycle test effectively bars candidates from adapting their riding to reflect the prevailing weather, road and other circumstances affecting their stopping distances. This cannot be appropriate, and we urge the Government to amend the regulations on this point as soon as possible. We note that it is the Government's implementation rather than the EU Directive which has caused this problem. It should therefore be straightforward to rectify. (Paragraph 29)

This is what just about every experienced motorcycle instructor in the country commentated on - that every bit of advice in the book is that you slow down / leave longer for stopping when surface conditions are poor. Why on earth you're expected to do the swerve in the same distance at the same speed in the wet is beyond comprehension.

I haven't read the full report, but it's a shame they didn't flag up in the conclusions the lack of mechanical sympathy required to get a 125 up to speed in the available space - a further dispensation to drop the speed 10kph to 40kph for the swerve test would make sense on the smaller machines.

11. The voluntary registration of motorcycle instructors should now be made mandatory. (Paragraph 61)

What the Lord giveth... etc. etc..

At the moment, I am NOT subject to the whims of the DSA as an advanced instructor, and long may it stay that way. Whilst I am not concerned about peer review, the last thing I want is for my training to be subjecd to the autocrats at the DSA.

the failure speedily to rectify problems with the test booking service also served as an irritant to an industry already suffering the inevitable spikes in demand for training and tests either side of the introduction of a new test regime.

Understatement of the year! Booking tests has always been a PITA and the new "system" has led to further chaos, with Module 2 tests being available with no candidates to put forward because there was no Module 1 availability. A temporary solution would be to allow candidates to take the two modules in any order until the balance has been worked out.

The DSA must be prepared to make adjustments to the test design if required, and it must work closely with the industry to ensure that candidates only attempt the test when they are genuinely ready for it. This requires a culture shift, and the DSA must help and encourage the industry in every way possible to achieve this. (Paragraph 26)

Without seeing the full contents, this particular conclusion worries me. There is currently NO obligation to take training - that's likely to change with the 3rd licence directive, but at the moment there's nothing that prevents a learner from doing CBT, jumping on a 125 and presenting themselves to the Module One off-road test. The conclusion that should have been drawn is that either Module One is too tough if learners with no further training can't pass it, OR that CBT is inadequate to teach basic machine skills.

Thanks again, FJS!

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

FJSRiDER.

23/03/2010 at 09:28

The Spin Doctor wrote (see)

...... at the moment there's nothing that prevents a learner from doing CBT, jumping on a 125 and presenting themselves to the Module One off-road test. The conclusion that should have been drawn is that either Module One is too tough if learners with no further training can't pass it, OR that CBT is inadequate to teach basic machine skills.

Actually I know a lad that did exactly that - he had failed his on-road test just before the introduction of the Module 1 and 2 so, being somewhat impecunious, 'learned' all about the Module 1 (by watching YouTube clips), practised swerving in empty car-parks, had a second go at the swerve on the test (you are allowed) and passed it.

So I suspect it is not that hard to pass....

FJSRiDER.

23/03/2010 at 09:33

There is a BBC news page on the story here.

It's a shame it probably won't make much in the news today thanks to the slime-weasel Byers and his trough snuffling pals being arrogant cocksuckers.....

Edited: 23/03/2010 at 09:38

The Spin Doctor

23/03/2010 at 09:56

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

Actually I know a lad that did exactly that - he had failed his on-road test just before the introduction of the Module 1 and 2 so, being somewhat impecunious, 'learned' all about the Module 1 (by watching YouTube clips), practised swerving in empty car-parks, had a second go at the swerve on the test (you are allowed) and passed it.
So I suspect it is not that hard to pass....

I don't think it's that hard to pass either - most of it is very straightforward, and the U turn is far easier, with plenty of room, no camber or kerb to worry about, and rear observations being only "form" rather than life or death - I've had to stop trainees about to do a U turn in front of a car they didn't spot numerous times when training on the road. (As a by-the-by, that's arguablya weakness of the new test - it's so far removed from reality that I really do wonder how many of the trainees who did the first module one tests this time last year have retained ANY of the techniques they used to pass it - or had any rationalisation from their instructor about how the swerve or the Fig 8 related to the "real world".)

But it's clearly easy to make a mess of too. As for why people are crashing on an apparently straightforward series of exercises, I did as much research as I could last year by talking to new riders and reading up personal experiences on the net.

Trying to work out why accidents were happening reveals that a common factor on the swerve exercise involves candidates who've failed on the first pass on speed (often by just 1 or 2kph), because they have no way to judge their speed other than glance at the speedo or try to judge it on engine noise.

They then nail it on the second to make sure they go through the trap above the minimum. Now, particularly on the big bikes, they are sailing through the speed trap at 60kph+ and what was a straightforward exercise is now rather more difficult. The record speed I've seen thru the trap was nearly 50mph and the rider crashed, running onto a cone with the front wheel whilst trying to stop in the "controlled stop" box. Arguably, the cones should be replaced for this exercise.

My own suggestion several years ago was that there should be a visible read-out for the candidate - I suggested a simple traffic light:

red - too slow
amber - nearly there
green - fast enough

An instructor reported that he did exactly that - hit 48kph on the first pass then over 60 on the second and was suprised how much difference it made to the effort he had to put into the steering - it went from a gentle weave to a fair push on the bars.

This "overspeed" problem is not an issue on the e-stop, because you have a straight line exit thru the speed trap and you just stop where you can - there's no fixed point to stop, unlike the controlled stop after the swerve.

There are also a few reports of highsides coming out of the 30kph "corner" towards the speed trap, and some crashes where riders have hit the front brake in the middle of the swerve. Again, these are likely related to the speed issue.

Nerves will also play a part.

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

wasabi

23/03/2010 at 14:10

Wouldn't it be easier to make sure the serve test was ALWAYS in the wet than faff about with different distances depending on weather? Buckets of water are quite cheap I hear.

bobbyt

23/03/2010 at 17:20

on the plus side, at least second hand bikes will become cheap. after all demand it going to vanish.

The Spin Doctor

23/03/2010 at 17:50

wasabi wrote (see)

Wouldn't it be easier to make sure the serve test was ALWAYS in the wet than faff about with different distances depending on weather? Buckets of water are quite cheap I hear.

It's only the swerve that's affected - the e-stop is still "in your own time", it's only the swerve and controlled stop that has to be done at the set speed in the same distance regardless of conditions.

artschool wrote (see)

on the plus side, at least second hand bikes will become cheap. after all demand it going to vanish.

They said that about the 250 law in the 60s... then part 1 and part 2, and the 125 law in the 80s... then CBT... then DAS.

However, the next step, the 3rd European Licence Directive doesn't look good, following so close on this fiasco.

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

FJSRiDER.

23/03/2010 at 20:55

The Spin Doctor wrote (see)

artschool wrote (see)
on the plus side, at least second hand bikes will become cheap. after all demand it going to vanish.

They said that about the 250 law in the 60s... then part 1 and part 2, and the 125 law in the 80s... then CBT... then DAS.
However, the next step, the 3rd European Licence Directive doesn't look good, following so close on this fiasco.

Trouble is if artschool is right the lack of demand will mean shops close, parts become harder to get, MOT stations disappear as the infrastructure we (well, some of you!) depend on evaporates. Actually I don't think it will - fuel becomes ever more expensive, traffic gets ever more congested, so people start to think about using smaller bikes and scooters as transport again anyway.

And I think the people moaning about the test are generally people who don't have to take it. Perhaps they think they are not skilled enough to pass it...

The Spin Doctor

23/03/2010 at 22:18

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

Trouble is if artschool is right the lack of demand will mean shops close, parts become harder to get, MOT stations disappear as the infrastructure we (well, some of you!) depend on evaporates. Actually I don't think it will - fuel becomes ever more expensive, traffic gets ever more congested, so people start to think about using smaller bikes and scooters as transport again anyway.
And I think the people moaning about the test are generally people who don't have to take it. Perhaps they think they are not skilled enough to pass it...

I think to some extent that's already happened, but it's not driven simply by lack of sales. Bikes are higher tech and tho they don't go wrong so often, when they do it's often something expensive, MOTs are more complex and demand more expensive equipment... I'm sure also that the motorcycle importers are themselves keen to move everything upmarket into fewer outlets so there's less competition and they can push bike prices higher.

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

wasabi

23/03/2010 at 22:23

Everybody seems to feel the whole test is somehow missing the point.

So... Turning the whole thing arse-about-face.

Give me the specifics of a single 30 minute test that would be 'scorable' in some kind of pseudo-scientific way. It would be a better reflection of whether someone should be allowed on the road with a potentially fast bike. Over to the pros?

wasabi

23/03/2010 at 22:37

The Spin Doctor wrote (see

n)

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)I think to some extent that's already happened, but it's not driven simply by lack of sales. Bikes are higher tech and tho they don't go wrong so often, when they do it's often something expensive, MOTs are more complex and demand more expensive equipment...

Not convinced bikes are really that much higher tech. Later this year I will hit official middle age of 40 and will probably reward this milestone with a comfy old-geezer bike like a V-strom or a Versys. Compared to the car industry chucking out endless 65 mpg vehciles with genuine groundbreaking features,, super eco 3 cyclinder diesels etc etc etc the bike industry seems ridiculously inflexible. All I've seen from bikes is inreasingly large exhauts to comply with emissions regs. Stuff like decent headlights, smooth gear-changes and adjustable seats/ bars seem to be the stuff of sci-fi for bikers. We're stuck in a niche.

The Spin Doctor

23/03/2010 at 22:51

Try taking the fairing off a CBR600 or R1 and see if you can find the plugs. Take a look at the fly by wire Harleys or the braking system on the new Fireblade. Then ask if you can fix that with a 1/2 inch square drive and a box of Snap-on sockets.

I can't remember the last time I rode a bike where I couldn't change gear smoothly (it might have been the Mk 2 Le Mans), a whole bunch of bikes have adjustable seats and some have adjustable bars (plus it's usually not that difficult to make your own mods).

Headlights are the one thing I do agree with you on, and that's another thing you can blame Europe for - twin headlights apparently made bikes look too much like cars, hence the appalling one dip, one main set up found on many models.

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

siwel

24/03/2010 at 19:51

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

And I think the people moaning about the test are generally people who don't have to take it. Perhaps they think they are not skilled enough to pass it...

nobody i have trained has said "thats impossible to do " comments have been such as -" is that what all the fuss has been about"

The Spin Doctor

24/03/2010 at 21:18

siwel wrote (see)

nobody i have trained has said "thats impossible to do " comments have been such as -" is that what all the fuss has been about"

Maybe you are just a brilliant instructor.

But the fact remains that riders HAVE crashed and the DSA DON'T have the sites to run the tests required.

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

DrDonnyBrago

26/03/2010 at 15:44

I found the Mod 1 test pretty easy, although I did go too fast through the gates - this was more because I couldn't gauge my speed than anything, so went on the high side to be sure.

50mph though screw that

The new test DID really put me off though; I was quite fortunate in that I am local to a test centre and didnt really consider that the new test might be more difficult. The main thing I thought was that the gap between mod 1 and mod 2 would be ages and therefore I'd need more training at the usual "premium" rate.

In the end it was a split decision between a holiday and a bike licence; the bike licence prevailed much to the dissapointment of my GF.

If the Earth is the size of a pea in Britain, then the Sun is a beachball 50m away, Pluto is 4km away, and the next nearest star is in Tokyo. Now shrink Pluto's orbit into a coffee cup, then our Milky Way Galaxy fills North America

The Spin Doctor

26/03/2010 at 19:20

DonnyBrago wrote (see)

...I did go too fast through the gates - this was more because I couldn't gauge my speed than anything, so went on the high side to be sure.
50mph though screw that

Ouch!!

Was that on the swerve? Did you make it through the swerve, how did you manage to stop in the box from that speed?

DonnyBrago wrote (see)

...training at the usual "premium" rate.

Compare the rate with golf or tennis lessons! Rider training really ISN'T that expensive!

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

FJSRiDER.

27/03/2010 at 11:02

siwel wrote (see)

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)
And I think the people moaning about the test are generally people who don't have to take it. Perhaps they think they are not skilled enough to pass it...

nobody i have trained has said "thats impossible to do " comments have been such as -" is that what all the fuss has been about"

Well, exactly.

I suspect the older riders are the ones that are not skilled enough to do it. I've watched as individuals from the 'grate I_AM' fail to do slow speed turns with appropriate clutch control though so perhaps they are not wrong to worry.

FJSRiDER.

27/03/2010 at 11:08

The Spin Doctor wrote (see)

But the fact remains that riders HAVE crashed

I don't think riders crashinbg on tests is particularly new though. It happens.

The Spin Doctor wrote (see)

and the DSA DON'T have the sites to run the tests required.

Indeed. And when they do they bugger them up. A truck chewed up/dumped diesel/coolant on (the story varied) the surface of the site in Taunton last year - and it was closed for several months while it was 'resurfaced' - the lad I mentioned earlier had a 60 mile round trip to Exeter on a sheddy old Gilera 125 to take his Mod 1

The Spin Doctor

27/03/2010 at 12:33

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

The Spin Doctor wrote (see)
But the fact remains that riders HAVE crashed
I don't think riders crashinbg on tests is particularly new though. It happens.

Of the trainees I took to test, precisely ONE in around 1000 since 96... there's no point in making a test unrealistically simple, but equally there is little sense in the way it's been implemented and rolled out.