NEWBIE looking for advice...

grot wrote (see)

try off roading on a motocross,

I suspect Tom's problem is that he's trying to get round bends on the road at speeds exceeding those that people generally ride when off road, so it might get him used to the controls and handling of an off road bike but wouldn't help with his difficulty.

grot wrote (see)

This type of riding is how most learn without killing themselves.

Is it really? I know very few riders who learned to ride on a motocrosser off-road. I do know some who rode on fields as children but that didn't teach them road riding. Judging by some of those I see around who are riding on footpaths and playing fields, it doesn't seem to give them any idea whatsoever on what to do on the road

I am aware that many people in the USA advocate learning to ride off road, but they don't appear to have the same opportunities for on-road training that we do.

Fear is good.   Not to the point it freezes you, but to the point it 'calms the devil on your shoulder going "go faster, go faster"'.

 Give yourself time, give yourself time, give yourself time.

 Any course on cornering will be worth it's weight.  After I first passed my test, I used to dread corners because I didn't feel I had a comfortable routine in my head for going round them.  It spoilt the experience for me.

I guess basically no real time is spent teaching people how to do corners quickly so you have to be proactive yourself... it's very much in one's interest in doing so.  Don't forget the R6 is a great bike, and it will do everything you want it to do, but it is also a serious bit of kit that deserves the same respect you'd give to a loaded gun, so to speak.

Good luck champ, enjoy. 

Tom Lau wrote (see)

Hey guys,

Only past my test a couple of weeks ago and got myself a 2006 R6!

Anyways, I'm just wondering what advice you more experienced riders can offer me in getting over my fear of going round corners

Benny_j wrote (see)

Ive recently been through what your talking about with very similar circumstances. Passed my test in september, couple of days later got an 03 R6. I was petrified of corners,

 Just thinkin' aloud as it were but is that the start of a pattern developing (yes, I know that two points on a graph make a line and so a trend).  I haven't ridden an R6 but it strikes me that they're pretty focussed track/sports bikes and as a new rider you're potentially asking a lot of yourself in handling such a bit of kit. 

I suspect that a lot of the older posters here conqured their 'fear of corners' if they had any by moving up the performance scale fairly gradually.  For example, I passed my test on a <10hp CB100 and then graduated to a CZ Jawa 250 with tyres that never wore out at the dizzy output of 17hp

So.. take it easy.   

Tom Lau wrote (see)

 I've been told by one rider if I'm going to follow cars everywhere I might aswell just drive my car

Thanks, Tom

That's rubbish

All original contributions to this forum by Kevin Williams are subject to a (cc) Creative Commons deed.
Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.0 UK: England & Wales
Full terms are available here but in brief if you use the author's work for any purpose, it's under the following conditions:
* Attribution. You must give the original author credit.
* Non-Commercial. You may not use this work for commercial purposes.
* Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under a licence identical to this one.
VD DEALS Blog Courses Books Facebook Twitter FREE STUFF

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

Hi Benny/all,

Fair enough.  However, I'd strongly encourage saving up for one of these courses - you'll learn stuff that will make your riding so much more enjoyable for years to come

"My strong recommendation would be to take some professional road training with the likes of Spin, www.ridedrive.co.uk , www.advanced-motorcycle-training.co.uk or www.rapidtraining.co.uk .  You'll be faster and safer."

Failing that, you might be lucky and have a RoSPA motorcycle group nearby.  RoSPA coaching won't be anything like as good as the best professional coaching, but it can cost as little as £15 to join some groups ...

www.roadar.org/groups/index.htm

<<But if you don't have that money to pay it makes no difference!>>

 I suppose it depends how much you have to spend on fixing the bike when you chuck it down the road.

Benny_j wrote (see)

I agree, its not that much. But if you don't have that money to pay it makes no difference!

You're right, but if someone ( non-specific person, not anyone here ) doesn't have that money because they've spent up on buying the bike and kit, perhaps they should have considered the full cost of ownership before making their initial purchase. I fully accept that there are people running a cheap machine on a shoe-string because of limited income, but anyone who can pay several thousands for a bike ( and I know they're out there ) shouldn't use lack of cash as an excuse for not taking training. Fair enough, if they simply don't want to.

The problems Tom Lau describes strongly suggest to me that he has not been taught how to steer a bike properly.

 At test speeds most riding is below 30mph and most corners will be negotiated at 15 - 20 mph. At these low speeds riders can get by steering their motorcycle like a pushbike, but once the test is passed and they attempt to go faster they need to counter steer.

At low speeds motorcycles can be steered like a pushbike, i.e. turning the handlebars left to make the bike turn left and right to to make the bike turn right. Depending upon the size and weight and steering geometry of any motorcycle there is a critical speed, usually about 20 mph at which the rider must switch to counter steering in order to maintain proper control of the vehicle through corners.

With counter steering the rider applies gentle pressure pushing the right handlebar forwards in order to initiate a right hand turn and applies gentle pressure pushing the left handlebar forwards to initiate a left hand turn. By steering 'the wrong way', i.e. counter steering the bike will begin to turn and lean into the turn and once this happens the rider simply maintains neutral pressure on the bars until the apex of the turn is passed and then counter steers the other way to bring the bike back up to verticle in time for the next straight. If the bike is cranked over to the right while taking a right hand bend for example, it can be straighted up by applying gentle pressure pushing the left handlebar forwards.

If you have never consciously done this before, you can practice while riding at a modest speed [30 mph] in a staight line and by alternately applying gentle forward pressure, to one handlebar and then the other, so that the bike begins a gentle slalom motion.

Once you become proficient at this, you will have far greater confidence in corners and will be able to corner at speed.

As for instability at high speeds, this is often caused by tension leading the rider to grip the  handlebars too tightly. Once you learn to counter steer, you will realise that your bike can be controlled at high speeds with only a gentle grip on the bars and if you find your bike beginning to feel unsteady as you increase speed, try to relax.

When a nervous rider experiences wind buffeting and grips the handlebars tightly in an attempt to steady his bike, the resultant rigidity causes the effects of the buffeting to be magnified and transmitted througout the bike. The rider then tenses even more and a vicious circle is created causing the bike to become increasingly unstable until the rider slows down.

By relaxing, the wind buffeting is not transmitted throughout the bike and the riders relaxed arms serve to absorb the buffeting, thereby causing the bike to become steady once more.

I hope this helps. 

Lord Larry wrote (see)

The problems Tom Lau describes strongly suggest to me that he has not been taught how to steer a bike properly.

 At test speeds most riding is below 30mph and most corners will be negotiated at 15 - 20 mph. At these low speeds riders can get by steering their motorcycle like a pushbike, but once the test is passed and they attempt to go faster they need to counter steer.

At low speeds motorcycles can be steered like a pushbike, i.e. turning the handlebars left to make the bike turn left and right to to make the bike turn right. Depending upon the size and weight and steering geometry of any motorcycle there is a critical speed, usually about 20 mph at which the rider must switch to counter steering in order to maintain proper control of the vehicle through corners.

With counter steering the rider applies gentle pressure pushing the right handlebar forwards in order to initiate a right hand turn and applies gentle pressure pushing the left handlebar forwards to initiate a left hand turn. By steering 'the wrong way', i.e. counter steering the bike will begin to turn and lean into the turn and once this happens the rider simply maintains neutral pressure on the bars until the apex of the turn is passed and then counter steers the other way to bring the bike back up to verticle in time for the next straight. If the bike is cranked over to the right while taking a right hand bend for example, it can be straighted up by applying gentle pressure pushing the left handlebar forwards.

If you have never consciously done this before, you can practice while riding at a modest speed [30 mph] in a staight line and by alternately applying gentle forward pressure, to one handlebar and then the other, so that the bike begins a gentle slalom motion.

Once you become proficient at this, you will have far greater confidence in corners and will be able to corner at speed.

As for instability at high speeds, this is often caused by tension leading the rider to grip the  handlebars too tightly. Once you learn to counter steer, you will realise that your bike can be controlled at high speeds with only a gentle grip on the bars and if you find your bike beginning to feel unsteady as you increase speed, try to relax.

When a nervous rider experiences wind buffeting and grips the handlebars tightly in an attempt to steady his bike, the resultant rigidity causes the effects of the buffeting to be magnified and transmitted througout the bike. The rider then tenses even more and a vicious circle is created causing the bike to become increasingly unstable until the rider slows down.

By relaxing, the wind buffeting is not transmitted throughout the bike and the riders relaxed arms serve to absorb the buffeting, thereby causing the bike to become steady once more.

I hope this helps. 

i guess you are new here
http://www.visordown.com/forum/forummessages.asp?dt=4&UTN=382577&V=2&SP=

i guess you are new here
http://www.visordown.com/forum/forummessages.asp?dt=4&UTN=382577&V=2&SP=

Lord Larry wrote (see)

 At these low speeds riders can get by steering their motorcycle like a pushbike, but once the test is passed and they attempt to go faster they need to counter steer.

At low speeds motorcycles can be steered like a pushbike, i.e. turning the handlebars left to make the bike turn left and right to to make the bike turn right.

Which is exactly how a pushbike steers. At least that's what Wilbur Wright thought when he was a bicycle engineer in - er- when was it?

I don't dispute the countersteering argument but there may be some people who would dispute the idea that you don't corner above 30mph on your test. That depends on what roads you're taken on, and most who get lessons will be given a good variation. Certainly I was.

I was cornering at 60+mph on my CBT   No idea about this whole countersteering business, I just did what I do on the mountain bike when I am giving it some, lean into the corner and it all worked either by voodoo or instinct... I have no idea which!

Was a lot of fun though, and I only got the jitters that I was going in too fast on 1 corner!

All that on a 125... not so bad!

But I do agree - a healthy dose of fear to keep things in check is always a good thing.  I have instilled that in myself on the mountain biking and it seems to pop straight over to the motorbike as well, though the speed at which it kicks in is higher, probably as a result of greater stability (and the fact I am not bouncing over rocks!) 

All original contributions to this forum by Kevin Williams are subject to a (cc) Creative Commons deed.
Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.0 UK: England & Wales
Full terms are available here but in brief if you use the author's work for any purpose, it's under the following conditions:
* Attribution. You must give the original author credit.
* Non-Commercial. You may not use this work for commercial purposes.
* Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under a licence identical to this one.
VD DEALS Blog Courses Books Facebook Twitter FREE STUFF

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

Must admit I dont really get the failure to take any post test training....I have been riding for over 20 years and still look to improve constantly....  getting onto a modern 600 sportsbike and expecting to translate your DAS training into higher speed riding is foolhardy to say the least....

budget the £150 or so for a days more advanced training...

It is certainly something that I am looking to do once I have passed the test and got a bike.  As I said, it all feels pretty natural to me, but as Spin said - understanding the physics of it all is probably going to help.  I do actually kind of get it, but it isn't a concious action - I don't know if I actually go through the motions you talk about when discussing countersteering for instance, though I guess I must do!

Still - for a first day on a motorbike I felt I was getting the hang of it pretty well and can't wait to get in deeper in a few weeks time!

The one thing that will delay any further training is relocation - I can't really sort anything else post test until I know where and when I am going to be moving.  Currently just outside Stirling, and should be heading to the South West Lakes at some point in the not too distant future (if we ever get an offer on the house that is!) 

Most people who ride pedal bikes fast learn to counter steer instinctively once they start riding through corners at speeds above the critical speed for their pedal bike above which counter steering is required. The same thing goes for motorcyclists and most of the time simply learning this instinctive lesson subconsciously and nothing more is OK.

When it become critical that you are aware of countersteering theory and consciously practice countersteering is the moment when something moves into your path while you are cornering causing you to change direction suddenly, or when you have committed yourself in a corner and discover that it is a decreasing radius bend that is tightening up sharply.

In these circumstances the subconscious countersteerer will react to the sudden danger by letting their conscious mind take over and they run the danger of steering in the direction they want to go. As we have already established, steering the way you want to go makes the bike do the opposite of what you want and in a panic, the subconscious countersteerer will steer even more extremely in the direction they want to go and end up crashing.

Someone who has consciously practiced countersteering however, to the point whereby it becomes second nature, will in either of the above scenarios automatically countersteer and the bike will behave the way they want it to, steering around the obstacle or leaning further to accomodate the decreasing radius of the bend.

Being a conscious countersteerer will one day save your life.