Near Miss

Braking

17 messages

:8)

26/04/2011 at 13:59

With a pilion on board my GSX1300R K9 I was travelling along a straight bit of single carriageway 'A' road. Following behind a Ford Ka, which itself was right up behind an articulated lorry far too close to see anything. I'd been in a following position for at least five minutes when I saw a clear overtake past both of the vehicles.

I moved out from behind the Ford Ka, waited to get a good look down the road and then accelerated past but when my front wheel was level with the Ford's offside rear wheel it suddenly did a cartoon-comedy 90 degree right turn out from behind the lorry with no indication and I'm guessing no mirror checking either. Right towards my bike.

Now the starnge thing is my right foot went for my back brake - and I hardly ever use the thing! I didn't go anywhere near my front brake, left the throttle open, kept calm and steered round the car as it continued to come out towards me. I couldn't make my left thumb move to hit the horn but I'm wondering if using it might have caused a panic reaction as the driver noticed a bike on her offside. I rolled on past, pulled back in front of the lorry and the Ka slotted in behind me.

Anyway, I pulled over in a lay-by and had a think about what had happened. A bit close in my view! I'm guessing that I was sitting in the Ka's blind spot when I pulled out to see past the truck and since she had no idea I was ever behind her in the first place, the die was already cast.

The Spin Doctor

26/04/2011 at 14:33

Well avoided... and top marks for stopping and thinking about what went wrong rather than just swearing at the car driver for making a mistake at the same time you made one!

Point 1: "I'd been in a following position for at least five minutes" So she might have known you were there and been waiting for you to pass, and finally decided YOU weren't going to go for the overtake OR she might have forgotten you completely!

Point 2: "when I saw a clear overtake past both of the vehicles." Never forget if YOU are thinking of an overtake, so might others be!

Point 3: "I couldn't make my left thumb move to hit the horn" Get your thumb on the button before you start the pass - make it part of your run-up to overtaking just like checking your mirrors.

Point 4: "but I'm wondering if using it might have caused a panic reaction" Use it early - it's best used as a warning, not as an emergency "get out of jail" card.

Point 5: "I'm guessing that I was sitting in the Ka's blind spot when I pulled out to see past the truck" There's a fair chance you were in the blindspot all along if you were in a position to see past both car and truck. In any case, if you detected she was too close to the truck what do you think she'd be looking at? It won't be her mirrors!

So yes, technically the driver's 'fault' but it's one the rider can stay out of with a little planning.

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

:8)

26/04/2011 at 14:42

Yes, all fair points. Cheers Spin Doctor.

The Spin Doctor

26/04/2011 at 14:52

No problem

... but as I say, top marks to you for using it as an opportunity to think "how could I have done better?"

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

SneakyMcC

03/05/2011 at 18:46

The Spin Doctor:
but it's one the rider can stay out of with a little planning.

I agree entirely, would you care to elaborate

With regard the foot going for rear brake...do you drive a car?

Edited: 03/05/2011 at 18:48

The Spin Doctor

03/05/2011 at 19:07

SneakyMcC wrote (see)

would you care to elaborate

I think I did - in the second post in the thread. What didn't I make clear?

SneakyMcC wrote (see)

With regard the foot going for rear brake...do you drive a car?

Good point.

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

SneakyMcC

03/05/2011 at 20:51

The Spin Doctor:

I think I did - in the second post in the thread. What didn't I make clear?

How would you generally plan for this type (not this actual one as you obviously weren't there) of overtake using The System?

Edited: 03/05/2011 at 20:52

The Spin Doctor

03/05/2011 at 21:34

SneakyMcC wrote (see)

How would you generally plan for this type (not this actual one as you obviously weren't there) of overtake using The System?

Hmmm... why does this smell like bait?

But to answer your question, I wouldn't.

At least, I would plan the overtake but I wouldn't get hung up worrying about remembering IPSGA in the right order.

To my mind, the MSF system "Search Evaluate Execute" gives you all the right cues but without the presciptive nature of IPSGA.

Fundamentally I'd be far more interested answering risk-based questions to decide yes or no:

- if I was making some 'useful' progress (ie is the vehicle ahead REALLY holding me up? And if I overtake it will I simply get stuck behind the next one... and the next one after that? If that's the case, I probably wouldn't bother even if I could pass safely)

- if what I was about to do looked safe (ie would anyone affected by me overtaking react unexpectedly. I've been 'helped out' by a driver braking to let me pass, thinking I didn't have enough room to pass him safely against the car coming the other way. He was right - that's why I was aiming for the gap behind him that he just very effectively closed.)

- what are others likely to do if I do pass (ie will anyone else be trying to use the same overtaking opportunity - an easy one on a bike is a tough one in a car, but the driver may go for it - and if he does he's unlikely to spare a moment to look for me, or there may be another bike behind me.)

- do I have a healthy safety margin (ie not just an 'adequate' one, but one that gives me a second chance! Would I have to accelerate hard to make it? In which case it's probably not 'adequate', let alone healthy, as I have to factor in losing that speed again.

- am I absolutely certain it's safe (if you don't KNOW, DON'T GO!).

I spent 16 years and around half a million miles despatching before I started instructing. The tortoise doesn't just beat the hare more often than not, the tortoise tends to stay out of hospital too.

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

SneakyMcC

03/05/2011 at 23:03

The Spin Doctor:

Hmmm... why does this smell like bait?

Not at all m8? I was just expecting some theory on how a simple overtake similar the one the thread is about can be evaluated, planned and executed safely.

You mentioned use of the horn to warn instead of using it in an emergency (giving information). You mentioned planning, I thought you might give a theoretical explanation how to plan effectively, may be some tips on taking in the available information (views up the inside of the vehicles in front, across fields etc?).
You mentioned staying out of trouble, I know you didnt meant it as positioning, but I hoped you might include some tips on that in your reply?

It seemed like a missed opportunity, sorry? :-/

The Spin Doctor

04/05/2011 at 08:00

SneakyMcC wrote (see)

Not at all m8? I was just expecting some theory on how a simple overtake similar the one the thread is about can be evaluated, planned and executed safely. You mentioned use of the horn to warn instead of using it in an emergency (giving information). You mentioned planning, I thought you might give a theoretical explanation how to plan effectively, may be some tips on taking in the available information (views up the inside of the vehicles in front, across fields etc?). You mentioned staying out of trouble, I know you didnt meant it as positioning, but I hoped you might include some tips on that in your reply? It seemed like a missed opportunity, sorry? :-/

Fair enough... getting paranoid I guess... I've lost count of the number of times an innocuous question with 'Roadcraft/System' in it turns out to be bait to start an argument.

Anyway... 'Simple' overtake similar to the OP?

Well, as should be clear from the "what did I do wrong" post, it was hardly a simple overtake. In fact, I'd say no overtake is 'simple' for the very simple fact that you're involving another human being in the mix, in this case TWO other humans. Bends don't change their mind about where they go half way through but the moment you involve another human, you've got an essentially unpredictable situation.

Realistically, overtaking is about the most complex task we perform on a bike:

- involving unpredictable humans
- requiring knowledge of what's ahead over distances beyond the capability of our vision to resolve the roadside well enough to spot blind entrances
- taking place at speeds where our time/distance calculations are liable to be faulty
- if it does go wrong speeds and thus impact are high - it's virtually the only accident you'll accelerate into

To my mind, the best way to understand how to 'plan' an overtake is to disassemble previous efforts that went wrong, either your own or by looking at accident studies!

Common overtaking accidents are:

- hitting a car turning right
- hitting a car emerging from the right
- having insufficient gap to pass with a vehicle coming the other way (often when overtaking towards a bend)
- overtaking a group of vehicles and finding no gap to get back to the left
- overtaking one vehicle and finding there's another in front of it and running out of space
- running into the back of a car turning right (stupid but quite common)
- hitting a car emerging from the LEFT (not so obvious)
- pulling out in front of a vehicle already overtaking the rider

That'll give you some idea of WHAT to look for.

cont'd

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

The Spin Doctor

04/05/2011 at 08:05

cont'd/

HOW to look is straightforward - ask three questions:

"What CAN you see?"
When you know that, ask "where you CANNOT see?"
Then ask "where can I go with a better view?"

When you work that out your positioning for VIEW becomes clear.

Often needs a bit of experimentation, but one thing that's clear is that on a STRAIGHT road it's often very difficult to see past a high, wide vehicle. If you move to the right, you not only potentially put yourself in a dangerous place with regard to oncoming cars, but you lose the view up the left altogether - could you spot a junction or a moped/cyclist?

Overtakes are not something you do relying on glimpses through gaps. I well remember taking a car on a right hander, through a clear gap in the traffic - I could see the tops of the cars over the lowish hedge and knew I had enough space. I was rather surprised to meet an MG Midget midcorner!Likewise could you see a diesel slick mid-corner even over a low drystone wall? As I said, if you don't KNOW, DON'T GO!

Don't follow too close - most advanced riders have been taught to follow far too close. If half your attention is directed to watching the car's brake lights, that's half your attention that's not directed at the overtake. Drop back - you might miss the odd pass because you've now further to go on the overtake, but you're more likely to spot problems.

Don't push your luck - a 'finely judged' overtake is just double-speak for little margin for error. And if an overtake goes wrong, you'll be lucky to be able to get out of trouble.

Don't overtake too fast - we're often told that each vehicle in a queue should be treated as an individual overtake, so that means your speed should allow you to get into each and every gap in the queue. It's tempting to wind open the throttle, but as speed rises, your 'bail out' opportunities rapidly reduce to zero.

The easiest place to pass is usually on the exit to a right hand bend - get your position right and you can see both sides of the road ahead of the car.

"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

Bike Breaker

04/05/2011 at 12:44

SneakyMcC wrote (see)

How would you generally plan for this type (not this actual one as you obviously weren't there) of overtake using The System?

What's this System of which you speak -er- type?

Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

Edited: 04/05/2011 at 12:46

wasabi

04/05/2011 at 17:35

To be fair to IPSGA -

When I had the Fazer I did quite a lot more overtaking than I do now on the Strom. On the revvy 600 gearing made responsive acceleration and deceleration into gaps much easier.

SneakyMcC

04/05/2011 at 21:25

Strom? I read that first as Storm and thought Firestorm. I was gonna reply that a torqey V-Twin should be better for Acceleration Sense than a revvy inline4?

With regard The System, The Spin Doctor is prolly better placed to spill the beans...

http://www.wbs-online.co.uk/ekmps/shops/wholesalebooks/images/motorcycle-roadcraft-the-police-riders-handbook-70-p.jpg

The Spin Doctor

05/05/2011 at 08:58

So you made me write all that just to post up an ad for Roadcraft?

Know anything about the Earl of Cottenham, and the 'Ten Commandments'?

Know anything about the 'Smith System'?

Know anything about the MSF, and 'SIPDE'?

Know the difference between systemic and systematic?

If you're seriously interested in systems, you could try reading my'Riding Systems' ebook available on this page.

To quote from that ebook:

"all systems, if they cover the key points and are simple to apply, are equally effective when applied by a rider who knows how to use them. But the rider must know what to look for, why to look for it and what they are going to do with that information when they get it. I think it's fairly clear that the the series of tasks required is far better promoted by the SIPDE systems than the complex-yet-simplistic IPSGA."

I then go onto explain how SIPDE itself has been improved. The current MSF 'system' is SEE - search evaluate execute:

"SEARCH EVALUATE EXECUTE has clear advantages over IPSGA, as the diagram above demonstrates. It neatly separates the three kind of tasks the rider has to perform, the visual SEARCH, the cognitive (thinking) EVALUATE, and the motor skill EXECUTE. "