How important is expert throttle control on the road?

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16/12/2005 at 16:35
This is a spin-off [sic] from the back wheel slide thread.

I hear dissenting voices It's allowed but I'll try to lay out my position on this logically. Part of the problem is that I've talked about P&S so many times here that I take short cuts when answering... sigh...

First up, this forum is about road riding and about road riders.

I'm not a track instructor and I'm not offering up track techniques, but what I'm doing is suggesting a subset of skills that I think makes sense on the road to the majority of riders.

Many of the riders who read this forum are NOT expert riders with years of experience or hours of riding tuition, but riders who simply want to get from A-B in as much safety as they can, and at the same time enjoy themselves. They don't want to start pushing and IMO nor should they be encouraged to push the limits of machine control in the same way that someone doing a track school would.

Road riding is about knowing what causes accidents and identifying what's under our control and what isn't. We control 'where' and 'when' we put the bike in a particular space and we also control our speed. What we don't control are the road itself or other people.

So we have to plan our riding to give ourselves the best chance of dealing with what we can't control by changing our own plan. This is what the riding systems are there for, to give you TIME to prevent an accident by recognising the situation that is developing in time. IMO if you had enough time to Look Access Decide, Search Predict Act or any of the other systems we've talked about here, then you wouldn't make the mistake that leads to the accident.

Spot the hazard early enough and we should simply glide through. Quiet efficiency it might be called.

But in reality we don't get everything spot on all the time and situations on the road are rarely capable of simple solutions. So we may need more dramatic machine inputs to get out of trouble. Not perfect, but if it succeeds, it's good enough. If a car pulls out in front of us, it's vital we learn to use the brakes effectively. A bend tightens unexpectedly, we must learn to steer properly, it's usually a better way out of trouble than braking in the turn. The surface turns slippery, we need to relax and try to avoid provoking a slide first and foremost, but ride the slide out if we can't avoid it.

So we need two things:
- enough time to pay attention to those important details - we must see the car or bend early enough to deal with it
- well-refined braking/steering skills and ability and confidence to use the throttle correctly

Having the machine control skills ON THEIR OWN is no guarantee that they'll kick in when you need them - as Keith Code points out in his theory of Survival Reactions, what sets off the panic instinct that usually cause a failure of machine control through inappropriate or inadquate responses to the hazard, is not having the time and attention to deal with whatever part of your riding system is about to go wrong.

So this is my rationale for P&S.



A) why not give yourself more time? There's a limit to the amount of information you can process.

Think about this. On a racetrack corner that you know well, you can concentrate 100% on just a few things - getting your speed right on the approach, hitting your turn in point just so, steering the bike the right amount, and using the right amount of throttle to maximise your speed around the turn and away down the following straight. After all that's what racing is all about. On the track, a crash may be the price you pay for discovering exactly how hard you can push - after all, if you're racing or even doing a trackday, it's you vs the rest of the riders or even just yourself.

But for most of us, the goal of road riding is to stay shiny side up and out of hospital. We neither want nor NEED to push so hard that we're on that ragged edge or even close to it. Even in slippery conditions, there is little occasion to NEED to push.

Rather, safe riding on the road demands that you ride with attention to spare. On the road, you rarely have this luxury of racetrack predictability - even a bend you know well is likely to be complicated at very least by other vehicles and often changes in the road surface (mud, diesel, grit, damp patches etc).

Now think about a corner you don't know. You have to process the information that gives you the approximate lie of the road, work out how much speed you want to shed, where you want to steer, how much lean, where you are going to send the bike........... and deal with unseen hazards along the way. That takes up one heck of a lot of mental processing power.

So what can we do to give ourselves an edge here and give over as much of our attention to dealing with that information as we can?

Well, we can simplify the machine control aspects of our riding. The closer you push towards the edge of control and the more complex interactions of machine control you use, the more attention you must focus on controlling the bike and simply staying upright. On a track this doesn't matter, but on the road you're eating into the attention you have to spare for dealing with line and hazards. The more you concentrate on "just so" machine control, the less likely you are to spot that hard-to-see entrance, the tightening corner or that bit of overbanding. We can sacrifice perfection in machine control to maximise processing power available to deal with the hazards of road riding.



B) Why not ride in a way that gives you an easier time? The simpler you keep the machine inputs, the more you stay relaxed and the less likely you are to tense up and head down the road towards KC's Survival Reactions.

Few people would argue that hard braking as you turn in IS possible in road riding, but they would also acknowledge that it pushes you nearer the edge as far as grip is concerned and if things go wrong, they'll go wrong pretty damn quickly. Doesn't the same apply about using hard acceleration? If the rear gets away from you, isn't it going to be rather tough to recover?

And if you're worried about the bike getting away from you, aren't you setting yourself up for a fit of panic?

Do your hard braking and hard acceleration in a straight line and the consequences of errors are less worrying.



C) why not give the bike an easier time? Suspension and tyres all work best if only loaded on one direction at a time.

TimD is absolutely right that good throttle control is important - I certainly don't dismiss that, neither am I advocating coasting round a corner on a neutral throttle, I'm looking for positive drive around a corner, which demands some throttle.

But what I'm suggest is that you try to avoid mixing and matching cornering forces with hard braking and trying to pick up speed in the turn.

The idea of P&S is that you seperate forces which work in one plane (braking and accelerating) as much as you can from the cornering forces that work whilst the bike is leant over.



D) And a final point. Prioritising what you need to work on, given that we are not all expert riders, do not have access to closed roads or expert instruction. The problem with finding out how to do something by getting it wrong is the consequences you inflict on yourself. Braking hard in a straight line is relatively fool-proof. Likewise straightline acceleration. But just like braking in a bend, accelerating in a bend could bit hard if you get it wrong. So how essential is the skill of accelerating through the corner? Well, how often do we really HAVE to twist the throttle harder in a bend? Are you ever FORCED to accelerate to avoid a problem mid-turn? Not to say it doesn't happen, I can think of a few situations such as having misjudged your getaway from a side turning or onto a roundabout, but it's not nearly as common having to hit the brakes hard. In the majority of cases, how much we choose to twist the throttle is entirely our own decision, under our own control.

I'd say we often NEED to be able to brake as hard as we can, and we sometimes NEED to use near-max lean angles, but we rarely NEED to try to accelerate so hard in the turn we are worried about rear end grip.

I'd say every time that if you want to work on your machine control ON THE ROAD sort out:

- braking
- steering
- accelerating

in that order.


So... conclusion.

Offering a subset of skills implies there's more to come, and in no way suggests there is no more to learn. Keeping things simple is nearly always a sensible option when riding on the road. Prioritising your needs is completely different from dismissing good throttle control or saying that it's not something that a rider should seek to improve.

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

16/12/2005 at 16:51
What's P&S again?

It's not necessary to tell me I'm right. Ever. We'll assume it. Nick Nolte, The Thin Red Line
16/12/2005 at 17:04
I think I know where this has come from...

I don't think 'expert' throttle control is important on the road - it can't be because by definition nearly every rider manages without it. Nearly everyone isn't an expert.

But I think 'some' throttle control is a very, very good thing to have, and it doesn't take much to understand the basics of it. Many riders can get away with pretty poor throttle control most of the time - decent tyres make up for a lot of poor throttle control - but combine poor throttle control with a modern, powerful, quick-revving engine and wet, slippery roads and the potential for slides is vastly increased.

The basic throttle control I spoke about on the other thread really is just that - basic - but in my experience even that is beyond many people. And it's not a 'track' technique, it's a machine control technique. Despite an awful lot of track experience (inlcuding instructing) 97% of my riding is done on the roads. But it doesn't matter where I'm riding, be it road or track, basic throttle control is the backbon e of good machine control.

In my opinion, yes, throttle control is an essential skill everyone should think about developing and using in conjucntion with every other skill they have, want or need.
16/12/2005 at 17:20
Quote

The basic throttle control I spoke about on the other thread really is just that - basic - but in my experience even that is beyond many people.


Agreed. Although I'd like you to define what YOU really mean by throttle control.

As far as I can see, it's about knowing when to open it and when to close it, and by how much.


Quote
And it's not a 'track' technique, it's a machine control technique.


Agreed again. But do you not agree that what you are trying to achieve is different in each location?

Quote

Despite an awful lot of track experience (inlcuding instructing) 97% of my riding is done on the roads. But it doesn't matter where I'm riding, be it road or track, basic throttle control is the backbon e of good machine control.


This is where I disagree. I was doing a CBT training course 10 years ago, and we were asked to teach "moving away and stopping"...

So the trainee instructor explained how with the engine running you select first gear, ease the clutch out etc. etc...

Our trainer let him finish and then said, "right, what's the big mistake he's just made?"

We thought about it for a bit and someone said "he's told him how to go before he told him how to stop".

IMO once you have mastered the basics that allow you to ride with a basic level of safety, the most important skill you need to develop to a high level is consistant and confident stopping in a hurry, rapidly followed by steering.

When you have those sorted, you can start working on the finer nuances of throttle control.

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

16/12/2005 at 17:27
TSD, am keen to reply but dogged at work. Would be handy if you'd expand some of your abbreviations else no time to search for it. In hindsight it does look like a pisstake but isn't. I can see where this is throttle question is from too and will have some comments for later...

Screwd.

It's not necessary to tell me I'm right. Ever. We'll assume it. Nick Nolte, The Thin Red Line
16/12/2005 at 17:50
Surely the term "throttle control" covers everything from elementary control of throttle and clutch from a standing start through to using the throttle to balance the bike and on to the more advanced techniques. We all need the basic bits, we could all probably benefit from the intermediate bits and I(for one) am puzzled about what is meant by the advanced bits. Any chance someone can explain, or should I just but out of this thread?
16/12/2005 at 18:03
The BirdMan wrote
Any chance someone can explain, or should I just but out of this thread?


I like people who ask questions for the rest of us
16/12/2005 at 18:24
OK, take a British Standard bend.

Basic training gets you to follow a centre to left-of-centre position thru the turn. Basically follows the road, gives adequate clearance left or right and room for correction of poor steering.

But from [edit to keep Ells happy ] old fashioned [end edit] advanced training you'll find it said that the best line thru it is one that maximises the radius of your own turn because it reduces the forces acting on the bike. In other words you start wide on the way in, clip the apex mid turn and run wide on the way out

However...

There are several problems, including the following:

- the bike is leant over for more than the length of the bend (you start turning on the straight and you finish turning on the next straight)
- on most bends over about 45 degrees you commit to a line before you can see where the exit to the bend is. The bend may not go where you expect. This can be positively dangerous on something like a wooded hairpin. If you wrong-guess the full angle of the bend, you'll run out of road before the bend has finished
- few bends are one offs - you may find yourself in the wrong position for the next hazard, and even if you do correctly assess a R/L or L/R combination you have to pull yourself from one side of the road where you exit the first bend to the other side for the entry to the second, actually meaning that you steer through a greater angle for each bend that was necessary
- the symmetrical wide in/wide out line demands pin-point steering, and drops you into the dip of the camber on a right hander and pushes you close to opposing traffic on a left hander
- the rider ends up carrying more speed thru the turn, eating up any safety benefit from the wider radius, whilst the higher speed
- on right handers, the early turn in means you are likely to get close to an oncoming vehicle mid-turn. To escape you have to pick the bike UP away from the hazard but TOWARDS the hedge. On a left hander, the danger is likely to be a side turning or entrance you haven't seen mid-turn - again, your escape it to pick the bike up, but pushing you wider in the exit

So... I use the Point and Squirt, which I mostly developed for myself but has been "cut and shut" with a modified version of Keith Code's bends technique from Twist of the Wrist 2. The same basic technique has more recently been given some prominance by Andy Ibbott in MCN and by Gary Baldwin in Bike, but I've been using this technique for 15 years for myself in my own riding and teaching it for a decade now.

You approach on a line that give you the best view into the turn. So not too different to the maximum radius line on the straight approach.

But because you are not on the widest possible radius you can go deeper into the turn and begin to follow the corner later - only when the bend itself starts to turn, onto what has been dubbed the "tracking line".

You have to take the corner slower - but the deeper straight line approach allows for later braking so you can carry your speed longer

When you see where the road goes, the slower speed allows a quicker steer. This gets the bike more upright more quickly.

If two corners run together, you can turn straight into position for the second corner, avoiding sweeping back and forth across the lane.

The bike spends more time upright - important if you need to brake suddenly or even change line, and allowing you to get on the gas easier.

On the wide tracking line, if a problem appears (from the left on a right hander or from the right on a left hander, you simply steer a little earlier than planned and use some of the space you have been saving.

The key factor is not committing to turn TIGHTER into the corner until you can see where the road goes next. Only when you see the exit (defined by KC as the point in the bend where you can do anything you like with the throttle - in other words it's where the bike is upright and headed for the next hazard), do you apply EXTRA steering to tighten the line - this is the "Point" bit. As soon as the bike is upright again you can apply throttle & "Squirt".

Many people suggest that the "quick steer" destabilises the bike mid turn. Not true, because your speed is lower and dropping your speed reduces kinetic energy by a power factor. A drop in speed from 60 to 45 means a much greater reduction in kinetic energy than 25%. This means the bike turns with less effort.

It's suggested it's not a "smooth" way to ride. That's not true either. It takes a bit of practice if you're used to maximum radii, big lean angles and carrrying high corner speeds to actually slow down and be positive with the brakes, steering and the throttle, but when you get it right it can flow beautifully. Positive does not mean banging the brakes on or throwing the bike on it's side.

HTH

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

16/12/2005 at 18:27
adoc42 wrote
I like people who ask questions for the rest of us

Well it could be a leading question OTOH it could be a trailing question, it just depends on the throttle position.
Well bugger this virtual lark, it's Friday night and the real pubs open so I'm off out of here.
16/12/2005 at 18:35
Quote
We all need the basic bits, we could all probably benefit from the intermediate bits and I(for one) am puzzled about what is meant by the advanced bits. Any chance someone can explain, or should I just but out of this thread?


Personally I'd say basic throttle control is good enough to allow you to move off and pull up smoothly, and to negotiate things like bends safely if not necessarily well - ie what you need to pass your bike test.

Intermediate throttle control I'd say would have to be good enough to allow you to do things like follow precise lines on bends without fear of getting it wrong in terms of both where the bike goes and what happens to the rear tyre gripwise - positive power into and thru the bend rather than going in on a closed throttle and opening mid-turn or shutting off mid-turn when you think you are going too fast - in other words the ability to use the throttle so that the line doesn't change due its (mis)use, as well as the ability to do this in all conditions of grip bar ice n snow. ie what you need to pass an advanced bike test.

Advanced throttle control - everything beyond that. Winding the power on whilst still leant over, and compensating for changes of line by changes of lean angle for instance. Being able to safely control (as opposed to avoiding getting into!) situations where the rear wheel is sliding under power.

How does that sound?

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

16/12/2005 at 18:37
For me throttle control = Acceleration sense. To parphrase the ability to match the variation in traffic speed and road conditions by accurate use of the throttle.
I find that bikers as well as car drivers use the throttle a bit like a tap on or off. many pulse the throttle. I think the best exponent in a car is M. Schumacher. Look at his telementary and you will be hard pressed to find a time he doesnt use the throttle to fine tune.
Spin I dont think your list has much use if you only rely on one component, all should be used in unison. My bike is almost four years old with about 24,000 miles plus(milometer is u/s). Im still on my first set of pads, brakes to slow not to stop. Use your ability to read the road, in my view in most cases illiminates the need to use the brakes but everything about good use of the throttle. Even if I was P&Sing would I need excessive braking or accurate throttle use, I think mainly the latter

done it dont want to do it again
COG#4 TIT120 SG82

Training in and around Oxfordshire


16/12/2005 at 18:38
The Spin Doctor wrote
OK,...- this is the "Point" bit. As soon as the bike is upright again you can apply throttle & "Squirt".
..HTH

Great expanation of point & squirt, thanks. Similar if not the same as what I've heard called quick turns or squaring off.
What I wondered is, what are these advanced throttle control techniques that you say aren't needed on the road (as per my earlier post)?
This may be an idiot question, but hell I'm feeling pretty idiotic right now, so now I really am off to the pub.

EDIT: Sorry, ignore this question I seem to be getting posts all out of order.
16/12/2005 at 18:45
The Spin Doctor wrote
Personally I'd say ...

How does that sound?

Sounds pretty good to me, thanks. Basic & intermediate are clearly road orientated the advanced stuff just shows I'm not at that level yet
I'll quite happily change my line by using the throttle but controlling a rear spin isn't somthing I'd deliberately practice on the road.
16/12/2005 at 18:47
<<But from advanced training you'll find it said that the best line thru it is one that maximises the radius of your own turn because it reduces the forces acting on the bike. In other words you start wide on the way in, clip the apex mid turn and run wide on the way out>>


Please we,ve been here before. No one I know trains this method, other than pehaps Yorik on his track days

done it dont want to do it again
COG#4 TIT120 SG82

Training in and around Oxfordshire


16/12/2005 at 18:50
Quote
Spin I dont think your list has much use if you only rely on one component, all should be used in unison.


Absolutely no argument... but I'm addressing throttle use as per the title

Digestible chunks and all that...


Quote
My bike is almost four years old with about 24,000 miles plus(milometer is u/s). Im still on my first set of pads, brakes to slow not to stop. Use your ability to read the road, in my view in most cases illiminates the need to use the brakes but everything about good use of the throttle. Even if I was P&Sing would I need excessive braking or accurate throttle use, I think mainly the latter


No you don't need excessive braking or throttle use even when on the P&S... I changed the front pads on the GSXR with 20k or so on them, and that's been mostly used for open road use. Nothing beats proper observation and anticipation skills and the brakes shouldn't be used as a substitute.

But...

...as we've said before.

1) If we were on the same bike in the same gear, I could still go deeper and brake later than you can manage by rolling off the throttle and using engine braking, whilst turning at the same point and carrying no more speed in the corner
2) Different bikes require different techniques. The Hornet doesn't have the engine braking of a BMW twin and to slow at the same rate I HAVE to use the brakes
3) If I DO need to brake because of something I see, I'm already gently on them, so have removed reaction and loading-up time for the front wheel saving valuable time
4) I have everything available from a feather touch to a full-on E stop at a squeeze. The limit to the amount of deceleration you can get out of engine braking is determined by how much the bike slows with the throttle shut and rear wheel adhesion

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

16/12/2005 at 18:52
Quote

Please we,ve been here before. No one I know trains this method, other than pehaps Yorik on his track days


It's in the W Mids Bikesafe video

"...maximising the radius of the bend and not working our tyres so hard"

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

16/12/2005 at 19:41
<<In other words you start wide on the way in, clip the apex mid turn and run wide on the way out>>


perhaps just those words dont ring true, are they you interpretation.The rules of cornering should prevent running wide on the exit of the bend.

done it dont want to do it again
COG#4 TIT120 SG82

Training in and around Oxfordshire


16/12/2005 at 19:48
The Spin Doctor wrote


How does that sound?


Thanks for the explanation, and for taking the time.

I tend towards your point and squirt driving on my (new to me) Fazer, though I always end up slowing down far to early for the needs of the bend - still cautious. I then tend to get slowly on the power whilst still leant over, just as I see the way out, and open up when upright.

As I have said before, though, I am one of those troublesome self taught riders - so how do I really know what I do....
16/12/2005 at 20:16
The Spin Doctor wrote
Basic..............ie what you need to pass your bike test.

Intermediate ............. ie what you need to pass an advanced bike test.

Advanced throttle control - everything beyond that.

How does that sound?


Confusing. I can do the basics and pass the bike test. It might surprise people that I can also do the intermediates but wouldn't pass an advanced test. And I can also wind on the power while leaning ( OK not much power and not knee down stuff ) change my line and lean angle but I fail because I've never has a slide under power so have no idea whether or not I could control it. I have made some spectacular cock-ups and recovered though.

So I guess I've attained the basics but not got to the next level. Which is fine as, in my opinion, most riding actually is basic.

But then I would say that, wouldn't I?

Everyone is entitled to my opinion.
16/12/2005 at 21:13
Quote

perhaps just those words dont ring true, are they you interpretation.The rules of cornering should prevent running wide on the exit of the bend.


As you said, we've been thru this.. of course it's my interpretation, but it's my interpretation of what seemed to be pretty widely understood back in the 70s and 80s, and was still being recommended by advanced riding groups well into the the 90s when I was with the local IAM outfit.

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

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