Hi-viz still officially promoted

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FJSRiDER.
23/01/2011 at 18:58
The Black Prince wrote (see)
Hence The Black Prince is temporarily day glo.

Day-glo is useless at night.

wasabi
24/01/2011 at 09:51
It is only 'useless' if there is no light source whatsoever. The actual illumination may wall be in the low light mesopic range well known to commuters - see

http://resodance.com/ali/mes_crit.html
FJSRiDER.
24/01/2011 at 11:22
wasabi wrote (see)
It is only 'useless' if there is no light source whatsoever. The actual illumination may wall be in the low light mesopic range well known to commuters - see http://resodance.com/ali/mes_crit.html

Nothing in that bit of copy and paste bollocks about seeing day-glo at night is there?
wasabi
24/01/2011 at 12:37
It is not a simple model with a nice big summary at the bottom saying 'dayglo is great' or 'dayglo sucks'. You have to look at the model and apply to the environment you are riding in.

Does this one make it clearer?
http://www.telescope-optics.net/eye_spectral_response.htm
The Spin Doctor
24/01/2011 at 15:49

The problem is that 'dayglo' glows in daylight by converting UV light to visible wavelengths. If there's no source of UV (ie the sun is below the horizon) it's no better than any other light coloured clothing.

As we've said before, unless your lights are directly illuminating any object, you're relying on diffuse light from other sources - in town that's likely to be streetlighting. 

In fact dayglo orange is worse under low pressure yellow sodium streetlighting - it appears brown.

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wasabi
24/01/2011 at 17:51
"As we've said before, unless your lights are directly illuminating any object, you're relying on diffuse light from other sources - in town that's likely to be streetlighting.

In fact dayglo orange is worse under low pressure yellow sodium streetlighting - it appears brown."

Agree - science says yellow in itself is a bad choice for night. Thus the importance of looking at mesopic and scotopic vision. While yellow 'might' be appropriate for nice sunny days (photopic), the best choice as you move towards low light (mesopic) seems to be green and then blue in low light scotopic.

Not that it is quite as simple as that. Colour of light being cast from lights, age and eye condition of observer, tint of the colour. And whether the driver can see you over their iphone.

FJSRiDER.
24/01/2011 at 18:21
wasabi wrote (see)
Does this one make it clearer? http://www.telescope-optics.net/eye_spectral_response.htm

No.
Bike Breaker
25/01/2011 at 06:55
wasabi wrote (see)
 
 
 And don't get me started on 95 percent of bikes having unfit for purpose headlights and tail-lights.
I'm sure my lights would be considered by you to be unfit for purpose ( although they suit my purpose well enough ) but the only time* I've been knocked off my bike was in daylight, I wasn't wearing hi-vis and I didn't have my headlight on.  The driver said he hadn't looked so, if I'd been covered in lights and a full day-glo suit, he still wouldn't have seen me. To see, first they have to look. 

Actually I lie. I was knocked off by a pedestrian running out in front of a bus stuck in a queue on the inside lane as I rode in the slowly moving outside queue. She ran into my handlebar and knocked me off balance. The landing snapped my brake lever.

Everyone is entitled to my opinion.
wasabi
25/01/2011 at 09:59
At least retro bikes made an attempt to illuminate the road within the limitations of quirks like 6v systems, low spec coils and single headlights. Didn't always work mind, (6 months commuting on an RXS100)

Most new bikes, even those with 2 headlights, waste it on one / up one down, or silly ridiculously small reflectors. Form over function.
The Spin Doctor
25/01/2011 at 10:08
wasabi wrote (see)
At least retro bikes made an attempt to illuminate the road within the limitations of quirks like 6v systems, low spec coils and single headlights. Didn't always work mind, (6 months commuting on an RXS100) Most new bikes, even those with 2 headlights, waste it on one / up one down, or silly ridiculously small reflectors. Form over function.


Blame Euro-regs, someone in the EU decided that having two headlights might make bikes look like cars (a mistake I have personally made with an early R1, truth be told). As I understand it, twin lights have to be behind a single 'glass' to meet the design regs.

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

FJSRiDER.
25/01/2011 at 13:35
The Spin Doctor wrote (see)
Blame Euro-regs, someone in the EU decided that having two headlights might make bikes look like cars (a mistake I have personally made with an early R1, truth be told).

If the motorised bicycle designers were not quite so inept this would never have become a problem.  Just put the lights close together.  Honda did quite well with the VFR/Varidero type headlight for a bit - but seem to have decided that a new 'style' with a single headlight is preferable currently.

As a rider at night I don't see why I should be handicapped by having a single lamp.  I can't see any better than car drivers so why should I be restricted to the half the candlepower of a car?
Edited: 25/01/2011 at 13:35
The Spin Doctor
25/01/2011 at 17:01
FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

If the motorised bicycle designers were not quite so inept this would never have become a problem.  Just put the lights close together.  Honda did quite well with the VFR/Varidero type headlight for a bit - but seem to have decided that a new 'style' with a single headlight is preferable currently.

As a rider at night I don't see why I should be handicapped by having a single lamp.  I can't see any better than car drivers so why should I be restricted to the half the candlepower of a car?


I entirely agree.

Why in 2010 does my new bike have a single incandescent tail light bulb? My CX500 had no less than three bulbs at the rear - that was in the mid-80s! 

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

FJSRiDER.
25/01/2011 at 17:24
The Spin Doctor wrote (see)
Why in 2010 does my new bike have a single incandescent tail light bulb? My CX500 had no less than three bulbs at the rear - that was in the mid-80s! 

I have no idea.  The Voyager has 2 x Renault 21 Safrane brake indicator clusters and apparently you can see them in the spray on a wet motorway at a distance when the bikes I was riding with were still invisible.  So that suits me.

Look at the latest FF-converted TMAX!

http://www.bikeweb.com/files/images/rear%20view%20small_0.preview.jpg

(Fiesta I think)

The Spin Doctor
25/01/2011 at 17:48

Perhaps a tad larger than I would like, but there really is no reason that bikes continue to have poor lighting.

Though of course we risk going down the "he must have seen me cos of my lights" route if we're not careful!

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

FJSRiDER.
25/01/2011 at 18:06
The Spin Doctor wrote (see)

Though of course we risk going down the "he must have seen me cos of my lights" route if we're not careful!


Well, I expect there to be less of a reason not to be seen in the spray, at night, on the motorway!
wasabi
25/01/2011 at 19:40
What a terrible thing to do to a lovely T-max! I at least hope the donor bike was pre-crashed.

Someone should do a feet forward piaggio mp3 - the wider front might convince doubters like me of stability in crosswinds.
The Black Prince
25/01/2011 at 20:04
I don't have the lights excuse - my main bike has twin Xenon headlights. It is like have two seachlights attached.

Spin - I agree with the remarks you made earlier. My approach with all riding is to anticipate and plan as much as I can and to ride defensively.

I can see situations (such as the one that affected my friend when a driver turning right crossed the carriage way to enter an imaginary gap that the stationary bike was occupying) where hi-viz might help. In this case the high viz / reflective strips would have been illuminated by the van headlights and might have helped - compared with his non-relfective clothing.

And FJS - I was using "day-glo" light heartedly...

The debate seems to polarise opinions. But as the wear it / don't wear it divide is still a personal choice at present, it matters not at all what people choose to do for themselves.

I don't much like hi-viz, but I am willing to give it a try as my wife will be happier if I do. That provides various upsides


FJSRiDER.
26/01/2011 at 08:32
wasabi wrote (see)
What a terrible thing to do to a lovely T-max! I at least hope the donor bike was pre-crashed.

Best thing to do to it, it was brand new. 

wasabi wrote (see)
Someone should do a feet forward piaggio mp3 - the wider front might convince doubters like me of stability in crosswinds.

Firstly a tricycle, by definition, cannot be a FF (which is a two-wheeler with a low and supportive seat) and you can't.  The steering and suspension mec would get in the way.  That you doubt of 'stability in crosswinds' does not bother me.  My bike is more stable and easier to ride in strong crosswinds because it is not a badly dressed up motorised bicycle and does not need your approval.
Edited: 26/01/2011 at 08:38
FJSRiDER.
26/01/2011 at 08:34
The Black Prince wrote (see)
The debate seems to polarise opinions. But as the wear it / don't wear it divide is still a personal choice at present, it matters not at all what people choose to do for themselves. 

The point of the thread is that some 'road safety' organisations are promoting it as 'safer' when there is no strong evidence to suggest that it is.

The Black Prince wrote (see)
 I don't much like hi-viz, but I am willing to give it a try as my wife will be happier if I do. That provides various upsides

What you wear to pleasure your wife is not of interest here.
The Spin Doctor
26/01/2011 at 08:45

FJSRiDER. wrote (see)

What you wear to pleasure your wife is not of interest here.

Correct... that will be for general!

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

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