Another *ouch* and eh?

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16/12/2007 at 11:57
OK, nearly five years of regular riding and just had my first spill on the road I'm unsure what went wrong hence this post to avoid it happening again.

I was stationary at a junction, before pulling out onto a main road in a 30mph limit. It was Friday evening, dark and the air temperature was probably 1-3 C. My rear tyre broke away suddenly and the bike flew ten feet down the road, throwing me off and I slid after it for a few feet. I've done on- and off-road training, so I'm familiar with avoiding and handling a rear wheel slide ... and thus rather embarrassed!

What did I do wrong?

Here are the facts:
- I was in first gear and slipping the clutch, as you would expect.
- The bike is a litre v-twin with some fuel injection snatch at low revs. So this could have contributed.
- I was very tired and stressed, so could have been ham fisted with the throttle. Though my recall was that I was fine with the throttle.
- The tyres were used, but legal, Pirelli Diablos. I know, not ideal for winter (but not race tyres either). Tyre pressures OK. Diablo tyres hadn't felt so grippy in winter before now. (I was waiting until the end of their useful life to replace them with the Strada version.)
- The rear tyre felt like it was on a patch of ice when it slid. My first reaction was that I'd not spotted a patch of ice. However, it wasn't; the road surface was dry.
- There was the usual white paint on the road. Possibly slippery when cold (?) but never a problem before.
- Riding experience: year-round rider of 4-5 years; a couple of track schools; two dirt biking holidays and Yamaha off-road school; several days 1:1 training with the likes of UK Advanced, which has helped me avoid countless incidents, but not this one!

So, what do you think went wrong? I'd like to avoid a repeat!
16/12/2007 at 12:35
Check the 'Ride Like A Pro' web site & vids on YouTube - he recommends gentle use of the rear brake even when accelerating around corners out of junctions.

Training info is (C) Malcolm Palmer. He asserts his right to be identified as author under the Copyright Design Patents Act 1988 & may be quoted only as part of a post in the Visordown bb by another board member. Author should be contacted for written permission before any other use, storage, transmission or recording, by any means.

Read my mutterings:

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/

16/12/2007 at 13:03
Oh dear...

Seems there's a rash of them at the moment... I hope the bumps and bruises aren't too painful, and the bike's not too bad

The main question has to be why did the tyre break traction in the first place? There must have been something that caused it to let go. I suspect the answer to both your "oops" and the other one is trying to twist the throttle and accelerate whilst leant over...

Once it's gone however, why did things get out of hand? I think there's likely to be two parts:

1) You're looking at a big motor - loads of horsepower that'll overwhelm the rear tyre with no difficulty on a slippery surface. I've wheelspun a CG125 on a wet surface (on decent 125 tyres too before someone comments) with only 11hp available at peak revs on full throttle, and I've wheelspun a tuned 50 with probably 6hp tops on gravel. Forget the tyre width, it doesn't take much power for a bike to break traction even with a tyre adapted to the conditions if the surface isn't there.

2) once the rear starts to go, you're going to do all sorts of strange things with the clutch and throttle. It's such a routine operation, turning out of a side road onto a main road, that most people forget the necessity to lock onto the tank and keep a light grip on the bars.

The solution is not to try to power round the turn, but to go out straighter and a bit slower, turn tighter and get the bike pointed where you want to go next BEFORE twisting the throttle. Basically, it's a version of Point and Squirt, and once upright, wheelspin isn't a problem, and this technique really doesn't add anything to the time it takes to get out of the junction - if anything it's faster because once upright, you can put the power on as hard as you like, whilst you have to be much more careful for longer is you power on as you lean.

Some points about grip and traction.

First, the way friction works is that once traction is LOST, you have to have to reduce what you are asking for to well below the point at which you lost traction in the first place, for it to REGAIN grip.

Second, low revs tend to demand more throttle to get the same drive - take a look at "thrust curves", not just torque or hp. Thrust is a measure of how the power is put down by the gearbox and in lower gears you get more thrust at any particular revs. But petrol engines aren't equally efficient across the entire rev range, and most Japanese engines develop the power towards the top end, even ones "retuned for mid-range"!! The "bump" of the torque curve is up the rev range - to get the same thrust at lower revs (ie same speed in a higher gear), you need to feed more fuel into the motor to get a bigger bang.

Now, put those two points together - so long as the tyre's gripping, the bigger handful's not a problem, but if the tyre breaks loose on a slippery patch, you've now feeding a lot of fuel into a motor that is rapidly spinning up into its efficient zone - as the rear spins up, the motor starts producing MORE power even if you keep the throttle steady and virtually guarantees that the tyre won't grip again! This is why the advice to run a high gear on a slippery surface is out of date for modern sports bikes - it's designed for low and slow revving engines with relatively little power - think 60s BMWs and Triumphs. This is not just my thinking - it's what Ron Haslam teaches in the wet! At really slow speeds, you're down first at the bottom of the rev range, so slipping the clutch means that you get the revs up higher without going any faster, so you're less likely to get a sudden "spin up" response if the rear does break traction.

What else? You might find getting into second and slipping the clutch also helps - not having ridden an SV I can't say for sure - because it seems to take the edge off the throttle response. Make sure you are REALLY slipping the clutch too - you should be able to twist the throttle and the revs should surge but the bike shouldn't jerk forward, or back when you shut it again, so that if the rear did step out and you inadvertantly tweak the throttle you shouldn't make things worse! It's worth moving the clutch lever so you have more slack than the usual 1/2cm at the end of the lever if you do a lot of slow town work - it's easier to control it then particularly if you have small hands.

These are all tricks I've learned thru years of trial and error despatching in the worst weather, often on slippery and sometimes icy roads through the winter - it's not something that I've seen covered in any book on advanced riding.

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

16/12/2007 at 13:06
Quote
Check the 'Ride Like A Pro' web site & vids on YouTube - he recommends gentle use of the rear brake even when accelerating around corners out of junctions.


Which is the bit I forgot... if the rear starts to slide at the same time as you're applying throttle, the back brake will work to prevent wheelspin - so all you get is a sideways slide, not wheelspin too.

A guy I know who used to race proddy bikes (a CB900F for those interested) in the old Avon Roadrunner championships (yep, a 130mph bike on Roadrunners) used to use exactly that technique in the wet on the bends - steady open throttle and control the speed with the rear brake instead!

It's something I've never really mastered but worth thinking about.

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

16/12/2007 at 19:03
Hmmm excellent reply - this part is something I used to do and I dont anymore

"The solution is not to try to power round the turn, but to go out straighter and a bit slower, turn tighter and get the bike pointed where you want to go next BEFORE twisting the throttle. Basically, it's a version of Point and Squirt, and once upright, wheelspin isn't a problem, and this technique really doesn't add anything to the time it takes to get out of the junction - if anything it's faster because once upright, you can put the power on as hard as you like, whilst you have to be much more careful for longer is you power on as you lean."

I was leaning and going wider than usual (lower camber on that point of the road) and putting throttle on so this is a good point BUT I have done this for a few years in exactly the same place.....ohhh ....

this happened before a year ago where I slipped but didn't come off at exactly the same place ....


I'll get my coat.....

==================================
Yamaha YZF R6 2004

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
16/12/2007 at 21:40
Spin/Horse,

Excellent replies. My thanks to you both. I'm so glad I posted here, as was unsure what had gone wrong, but you've provided some solutions that I'm sure will work for me. Brilliant!

Remarkably, I'm completely without a single bruise, thanks to good kit and a bit of luck. A scaphoid protector on my gloves dissipated the impact so well that I landed palm-first without feeling any shock whatsoever. Then I hit my knee and foot, but Hiprotec armour and BMW boots both worked a treat. A huge thumbs up for these pieces of kit.

The bike is unscratched too, thanks to R&G protectors on the fairing, forks and exhaust. It'll cost me 70-80 quid to replace the three nylon protectors and that's it. Amazing.
17/12/2007 at 07:51
Like the saying goes. Shit happen's ! We are mere mortal's and there's not alway's a logical explanation.
17/12/2007 at 22:28
Interesting to read you were on Pirelli Diablo Corsas - I was out yesterday and lost the back of the R1 accelerating/overtaking which, fortunately, the bike caught for me but was an 'exciting' moment. Brings me onto another point: when the rear gets squared off does that negatively affect the available grip or just my perception of it because of the way it feels?
18/12/2007 at 11:46
Quote
Interesting to read you were on Pirelli Diablo Corsas - I was out yesterday and lost the back of the R1 accelerating/overtaking which, fortunately, the bike caught for me but was an 'exciting' moment. Brings me onto another point: when the rear gets squared off does that negatively affect the available grip or just my perception of it because of the way it feels?


Three or four years ago, one of the journos in Performance Bikes (I think) stuck Michelin Macadam radials on for the winter... all the others laughed at him... he said they transformed the bike on cold roads. (They also last rather longer!)

The tyre manufacturers also suggest fitting touring or sports-touring compounds over the winter when sports tyres won't warm up. There was a good article on the subject on one of the websites for a while. The Pirelli would be the Strada.

The problem with squared off tyres could be one of two things:

1) there might be problems clearing water from under the tyre when the contact patch gets wider - bike tyres rely on their U shape to force water to either side - that's why they can get away with far fewer grooves than a car tyre
2) when you're just off the vertical you're riding on a narrow 'edge' because the tyre is now \_/ shaped rather than U shaped... so not only less grip but less stability too

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

19/12/2007 at 11:47
Hi again,

The winter road treatment this year seems slippier than before. Anyone else noticed this?

I hesitate to blame my tyre choice for the slip, although I suspect it was a contributory factor. (Mea culpa for using sports tyres when it was freezing anyway.)

donut69 wrote
Interesting to read you were on Pirelli Diablo Corsas - I was out yesterday and lost the back of the R1 ...


My Diablo tyres often felt "off" when cold or wet. From experience, the Diablo Strada version's more secure in the wet or cold and OK on track too.

The latest dual compound tyres for sports-touring look even better still: Bridgestone BT021, Dunlop Roadsmart or Michelin Pilot Road 2. Has anyone experienced these yet? It's hard to tell the pros and cons of one versus another

The Spin Doctor wrote
... one of the journos in Performance Bikes (I think) stuck Michelin Macadam radials on for the winter... he said they transformed the bike on cold roads ...


"The Baron" in PB lapped the 'Ring only marginally slower on BT021 sports-touring tyres than on race rubber. Naturally, he gave them an impressive thumbs up.

19/12/2007 at 12:46
Quote

The winter road treatment this year seems slippier than before. Anyone else noticed this?

I managed to get the back end of the car out the other day on a fairly innocuous corner, with the road damp from the overnight treatment.

Given the dosh that the average rider spends on bikes and kit, a pair of wheels with winter tyres probably makes a sensible investment these days!! Better than half a horsepower from a £750 exhaust system anyway

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

19/12/2007 at 13:53
I just had some Corsa III's put on, so thanks, feel like I just threw away £250. I thought these were supposed to be OK in damp cold conditions no?

If not, whats the point of the III's, I might have just stayed on the Pro's then?

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg99/stujclark/Brands%20GP%20JUne%2008/SDI_1740.jpg

19/12/2007 at 14:24
The Corsa IIIs were brilliant when new in the summer but are 4,000 miles old now and it was very cold and wet and I was crossing white lines so maybe I was expecting a bit too much
19/12/2007 at 16:13
Hi Spin,

The Spin Doctor wrote
I managed to get the back end of the car out the other day on a fairly innocuous corner


Perhaps I could recommend some advanced car training for you
19/12/2007 at 16:25
Bad luck Marksv on the spill

I just sold my RSV recently and had a couple of scarey moments in damp and cold conditions on it. I was running Metzler Rennsports.

Each time it happened I wasn't even using more then 10% throttle and the rear end kept trying to overtake the front

A couple of times when I had mates behind me, they were amazed that I didn't highside on a few occasions.

All that torque, you need to be very careful. I did run some BT020's on it one winter and although not a great tyre choice for fast riding in decent conditions come spring, they were excellent in the winter. Never span up, no scarey moments and had lots of grip in the wet.

The added bonus of BT020's is that come the spring, as the compund is so hard, you can do massive burnouts on them and you're lucky if it even takes 0.5 off the tread after repeating the process several times
20/12/2007 at 09:51
Quote
I just had some Corsa III's put on, so thanks, feel like I just threw away £250. I thought these were supposed to be OK in damp cold conditions no?

If not, whats the point of the III's, I might have just stayed on the Pro's then?


Let's see what Pirelli have to say about it:

" * Performance as soon as you need it
* Confidence on normal roads and top performance on racetrack
* Improved corner entry while still braking hard
* Exploitation of your bike's potential to the utmost"

Superbike said:

"Essentially the tyre has a new front compound, designed to improve corner-entry stability and feel on the brakes, while the rear is now a €œthree zone compound€. I'm sure you've worked it out - there's a central compound which remains the same as the current tyre, while the compound on the shoulders is claimed to be 15 per cent softer, offering quicker warm up and more grip.
This is exactly the same tyre which the young guns in the European junior Superstock championship are on and those boys aren't hanging about. Pirelli was at pains to point out that this is still more of a tyre designed for the road rather than an out-and-out track tyre, so if you push for long enough on a big horsepower bike on a warm track, it's going to start moving a bit - but you are going to have to go some!"

So... not really a winter road tyre is it? I think the fact that it's in the Hypersport category on their website is a bit of a giveaway...

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

21/12/2007 at 10:14
The Spin Doctor wrote
Let's see what Pirelli have to say about it:

" * Performance as soon as you need it
* Confidence on normal roads and top performance on racetrack
* Improved corner entry while still braking hard
* Exploitation of your bike's potential to the utmost"

Superbike said:

"Essentially the tyre has a new front compound, designed to improve corner-entry stability and feel on the brakes, while the rear is now a €œthree zone compound€. I'm sure you've worked it out - there's a central compound which remains the same as the current tyre, while the compound on the shoulders is claimed to be 15 per cent softer, offering quicker warm up and more grip.
This is exactly the same tyre which the young guns in the European junior Superstock championship are on and those boys aren't hanging about. Pirelli was at pains to point out that this is still more of a tyre designed for the road rather than an out-and-out track tyre, so if you push for long enough on a big horsepower bike on a warm track, it's going to start moving a bit - but you are going to have to go some!"

So... not really a winter road tyre is it? I think the fact that it's in the Hypersport category on their website is a bit of a giveaway...


To be honest, like a knob, I didnt go on the Pirelli site, I tell ya where I got the info about it being ok for wet, on DSC forum, there's a pirelli bloke on their who said try our Diablo III's, this was about 3 months ago, they must have had a bunch of em they wanted to get rid of I reckon, tosser.

Thats my excuse anyway for being a plank.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg99/stujclark/Brands%20GP%20JUne%2008/SDI_1740.jpg

21/12/2007 at 11:28
Quote
To be honest, like a knob, I didnt go on the Pirelli site, I tell ya where I got the info about it being ok for wet, on DSC forum, there's a pirelli bloke on their who said try our Diablo III's, this was about 3 months ago, they must have had a bunch of em they wanted to get rid of I reckon, tosser.


Three months ago it was still sunny and warm

But basically, you won't get a supersport tyre up to operating temperature at this time of year, and it just won't work as well as a touring tyre which is designed to deal with a much broader range of conditions including cold, wet roads!

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"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC :burnout:

21/12/2007 at 11:47
The Spin Doctor wrote
Three months ago it was still sunny and warm

But basically, you won't get a supersport tyre up to operating temperature at this time of year, and it just won't work as well as a touring tyre which is designed to deal with a much broader range of conditions including cold, wet roads!


wanna buy em off me?

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg99/stujclark/Brands%20GP%20JUne%2008/SDI_1740.jpg

21/12/2007 at 12:01
The Spin Doctor wrote
Three months ago it was still sunny and warm

But basically, you won't get a supersport tyre up to operating temperature at this time of year, and it just won't work as well as a touring tyre which is designed to deal with a much broader range of conditions including cold, wet roads!


You seem like a man of experience so I hope you dont mind me asking, what would you say would be the most suitable tyre for my bike in winter then?

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg99/stujclark/Brands%20GP%20JUne%2008/SDI_1740.jpg

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